Architect - should she have checked utilities before designing?

System

If the supply is in the wrong place then no one would have been able to identify it's location until it was unearthed - that's the difficulty with things below ground!
Utility providers rarely have accurate information on the exact locations of their service runs in my experience and you should always have a contingency sum ready for unexpected things like this (especially before you are out of the ground)

You say it's "costing you thousands" but what is? Is the builder charging you and not attending site, is the utility company charging to move an incorrectly located supply?
I'm not sure why the builder thinks the architect should have known about it? why did they not know about it? they've both seen the site before the work has started...

Is the architect the contract administrator rather than the project manager? What form of contract are the works under?

chappers

Most sets of architectural drawings will have these sorts of exclusions specifically mentioned in them such as sewerage runs etc must be checked on site, ground conditions dimensions etc.

In your situation what are you calling shallow, finding utilities on a building job is part of the game I'm afraid, if you were expecting to connect into them, then yes I would expect them to have been identified in the first place.

owitemisermusa

Interesting convo... I certainly would've expected my architect or project manager to check these sorts of things... Isn't that why they're the experts?

fezster

AnnieMary wrote: »

Hello


We are in the middle of an incredibly stressful renovation project and one of the delays has been that the electrical supply for the street runs about 1.5m from the front door of the property and is very shallow. This was discovered by the groundsmen as the architect didn't research this in her design and the design relies on building too close to where the cable lies.


The delay in trying to get SSE to move the cable is costing us thousands. The builder says the architect should have looked at this before doing the design. Any ideas if he is right?


Thanks!

Is this cable running on your land? And it supplies the whole street? I'd ask your local electricity distributor who owns this cable and see if you can have them move it off of your land at their expense.

As for knowing in advance where the cable was, I'm not sure how the architect would have achieved this without digging up the ground. Standard clauses in the contract will say that certain things can only be ascertained 'on the ground'. I'd be more concerned with why your builder is so surprised on finding this cable and why he's so adamant the architect should have known about it. Both of these tell me he's probably not very experienced, else he'd have expected things like this can happen on building sites.

System

owitemisermusa wrote: »

Interesting convo... I certainly would've expected my architect or project manager to check these sorts of things... Isn't that why they're the experts?

I would be willing to bet that if they included an intrusive site investigation to investigate all the potential underground services on a site, requiring a contractor on site doing test digs over the entire site etc - no one would want to pay for that, especially before even looking at the design/costs of the extension.

There will be informed guesses as to the location of underground services - the whole street electric supply shouldn't be running through the site at all so it's unlikely anyone would have checked to see if it was.
You can never have every piece of information to hand before digging a site which is why contracts are based on information available at the time and include contingency sums for unknowns.

teneighty

This thread is going off at a bit of a tangent which isn't helping.

All public utilities are plotted on plans held by the utility companies (in theory and to varying degrees of accuracy) and are available for public scrutiny. The point is should the architect have undertaken this search prior to commencing design. I say not. But most homeowners are given this information with the searches when they buy the property so should be aware of it.

Public Utilities can and do run across private land. It is a fact of life so no point worrying about it now. Just pay to get the cable moved, sleeve it under the work if allowed, or re-design the work to avoid it. As I said before it should be covered by a simple easement which if in place should be known to the homeowner.

Reading between the lines I can't help feeling the builder is milking this to claim extra costs and throwing all the blame on the architect. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened. (Not you Doozergirl I'm sure)

kie-ade

I don't believe it is common practice for Architects/designers to carry out searches with service providers.
I don't as there is no guarantee that the information received would be correct or comprehensive.
There can also be other 'services' etc. that aren't plotted (private drains for example) so it is safer to suggest that trial holes/trenches are carefully dug to locate (as far as is possible) the extent of services in the area affected.
If this is done at the outset (and certainly before the main body of work is commenced) then the design/budget can be altered, if required, and any additional costs kept to a minimum.

Ps. However, it is useful to know if an extension is likely to fall within 3m of a public sewer so I do contact the Water Authority on occasions

Annie1960

In your position, if you want a definitive answer about whether the architect should have taken this into account, I would give RIBA a ring for an informal chat.

My architect pointed out to me the drains and suchlike which are near to the work I'm having done. I don't really understand your situation enough, as others have said it's unclear whether you're talking about public utilities or your own supply, so try to make sure you know as much as you can about this before contacting RIBA.

Good luck.

System

Annie1960 wrote: »

In your position, if you want a definitive answer about whether the architect should have taken this into account, I would give RIBA a ring for an informal chat.

My architect pointed out to me the drains and suchlike which are near to the work I'm having done. I don't really understand your situation enough, as others have said it's unclear whether you're talking about public utilities or your own supply, so try to make sure you know as much as you can about this before contacting RIBA.

Good luck.

What exactly would contacting RIBA do here?
Something like this really isn't within their remit whatsoever!!

brightontraveller

the_r_sole wrote: »

If the supply is in the wrong place then no one would have been able to identify it's location until it was unearthed - that's the difficulty with things below ground!
Utility providers rarely have accurate information on the exact locations of their service runs in my experience and you should always have a contingency sum ready for unexpected things like this (especially before you are out of the ground)

You say it's "costing you thousands" but what is? Is the builder charging you and not attending site, is the utility company charging to move an incorrectly located supply?
I'm not sure why the builder thinks the architect should have known about it? why did they not know about it? they've both seen the site before the work has started...

Is the architect the contract administrator rather than the project manager? What form of contract are the works under?

Although its tricky underground and yes there maps etc are often inaccurate It doesn't mean it can stay there ? (Or as utilities would have all believe they can do as they please?) They cant just stick there infrastructure/cables anywhere there are set procedure they need abide by (Many farmers whom have found utilities digging up there land ditto the city virgin seam to attempt it at least? without asking anyone's permission )
There has to be agreement or compulsory power enforcement ? The utilities wayleaves department is always a good starter see if there is agreement etc
If not then there openers were £1 - £1.50 per 100 meters normally but its whatever you can get out of them ?
Although a property may have Restrictive Covenants, Wayleaves Easements etc the wayleaves themselves were permissive ( pretty sure they still are ) They had to be agreed ? If no one had and land owner doesn't agree utilities have to go other route compulsory powers which is time consuming and expensive ? So if it is in the “wrong place” as OP states then it might not be so open and shut case? If owner of opposing land granted them consent they subsequently put it in the "wrong place "They may well be able to get utilities to move it free and get some dosh out of them at the same time? May well be long shot but not expensive to find out and could well save a pretty penny :j

I agree there should always be contingency plans for these situations but I’d say in- experienced architect ditto builder (and to extent client ) Someone should have thought about it before works commenced it doesn’t take a genius to know if you build beyond existing building boundary something may be there ?