County court claim for PCN

OMG_HowMuch??

Hi
Please can someone help? we have recently received a County Court claim form for an unpaid PCN (Silly I know, I made the mistake of ignoring it, but that is what everyone told me to do at the time,lesson learned).

I've been reading some of the sticky threads at the top of the forum and it advised opening a new thread once we get to the court stage.

I'm trying to put together my defence statement, but I am unsure what to put into it.

The charge was for a 20 minute overstay on a retail carpark, (the annoying thing is we were there for a meal and a trip to the cinema and the only reason that we were late returning was because the film was longer that expected due to all the crappy trailers and averts that they lump onto the beginning of the film).

I've filed the acknowledgement of service to give me some more time to put together the defence.

From the research I've done, I realise that the fact that we were there as customers to the businesses located on the site doesn't mean much thanks to the beavis case.

What I'm struggling with is I can't get an evidence of the signage as this occurred more than 12 months ago. We visited the site again a few days ago and the signage has all changed as the time limit has been increased to 5 hours now (probably due to the fact that 4 hours made it impossible to have a meal and watch a film). Does this play into my favour? I'm sure that the signage must have been small, as I don't remember seeing any of it.

I do remember that the car park was empty when we left, so we were definitely not preventing anyone else from parking.

The next action I'm going to take is I'm going to write to the DVLA to make a Part 18 request to make sure when they requested the keeper information. Does anyone know what the time limits are on this one?

Other posts mention getting copy of the contract between the parking company and the landowner, but not sure how to go about this one.

Any help appreciated.

Coupon-mad

If it's Civil Enforcement, search the forum for 'Schwartz' and read all recent 2016 court threads as you will find a draft defence to adapt. Tons of threads about them recently.

If it's ParkingEye, start by reading the NEWBIES thread post #1 under the stuff about appeals, reads 'Small Claim?' because the links will help. And read the parking Prankster's guide to defending a ParkingEye small claim and search the forum for 'court defence' as a broad search and read any PE cases THIS YEAR ONLY. Anything older is too old/out of date.

Or who is it? UKPC?

Have you acknowledged the claim online? (leave the defence box BLANK).

OMG_HowMuch??

It is Civil Enforcement. I know where the Schwartz reference comes from I did a bit off googling mister Schwartz less said on his history the better.

Redx

as its CEL, there are maybe a dozen or more ongoing threads with similar court claims, just use the forum search box and CEL COURT or SCHWARTZ and read the advice they were given, following the same paths as they are

OMG_HowMuch??

Just to update I've sent a email to the DVLA questioning the release of my information.

As the PCN was issued based on an ANPR camera I believe that they have only 14 days to request information from the DVLA. There is a an 18 duration between the PCN issue date and the incident date.

I just hope that the DVLA respond to emails.

Redx

wrong , for anpr incidents thay have 14 days to get a pcn to the keeper, so the dvla enquiry would be within a few days, this is providing they are trying to adhere to POFA2012, not all of them do use POFA2012 for keeper liability but that doesnt stop them pursuing keepers as they are possible drivers

lets assume no NTK came by day 15 to an anpr incident, then they have failed POFA2012 and this would be one of many defence points you would make, but several others too , like no locus standii , poor signage ets

OMG_HowMuch??

Redx wrote: »

wrong , for anpr incidents thay have 14 days to get a pcn to the keeper,

I was basing this on what I found on a website (i'm unable to post link as I'm classed as a new member)

Under the provisions of the Schedule 4 of the Protection Of
Freedoms Act (POFA) Private Parking Companies (PPCs) are
specifically prohibited from requesting data from the DVLA -
a. Until 28 days have elapsed following the issue of a ticket in
respect of a vehicle infringing the terms and conditions of parking
in a private car park, and
b. More than 14 days after an offending vehicle has been spotted
using ANPR in a private car park

Coupon-mad

OMG_HowMuch?? wrote: »

Just to update I've sent a email to the DVLA questioning the release of my information.

As the PCN was issued based on an ANPR camera I believe that they have only 14 days to request information from the DVLA. There is a an 18 duration between the PCN issue date and the incident date.

I just hope that the DVLA respond to emails.

That's not relevant in the way you seem to think. They can issue them later, it doesn't make the PCN unenforceable per se but they can't hold a keeper liable under the POFA 2012. There are two approaches and they follow the 'driver liability only' version.

And of course, you (the Defendant) are the registered keeper! Can't be held liable without evidence of the driver (which they do not have, they don't have CCTV or a name unless an early appeal handed that to them) but you have to word it well. That's why you will see the example CEL defence from last month on various threads, mentions this point as well as not saying who might have been driving all those months ago. And CEL have no evidence either so they will/should become unstuck, it's just some work for you to achieve it.

Redx

Redx wrote: »

wrong , for anpr incidents thay have 14 days to get a pcn to the keeper, so the dvla enquiry would be within a few days, this is providing they are trying to adhere to POFA2012, not all of them do use POFA2012 for keeper liability but that doesnt stop them pursuing keepers as they are possible drivers

lets assume no NTK came by day 15 to an anpr incident, then they have failed POFA2012 and this would be one of many defence points you would make

to the OP ,

you quoted me out of context, the proviso for POFA2012 was in the bit you did not quote above so I have highlighted it in red

I did tell you that many PPC,s dont adhere to POFA2012, which is why CM has replied in the last post, to clarify the situation for you , you do have the right words, but dont seem to understand the context , they can get it later but have still failed the POFA test

OMG_HowMuch??

Sorry RedEx, I didn't mean to quote you out of context. I was just wondering if by asking the DVLA for information about a ANPR case more than 14 days after the incident date they might have broken some laws themselves.

So can I just check that my understanding is correct so far. Because they issued the PCN 18 days after the event, they can't just hold the keeper liable. They need to get the driver which they won't know, to be honest I can't remember myself, this happened over a year ago now.

Do I just need to make this clear in my defence? That I don't know the driver.

Have case ever been thrown out for failing POFA?

Redx

in a word , yes, you have the gist of it, but no laws are "broken"

but any applicable laws have to be adhered to if they want to use them in their claim

so they have 6 years to bring a claim against the "perpetrator" , the driver

if they knew who the driver or perpetrator was they would target them , POFA or no POFA

BUT TO TRY TO HOLD A KEEPER LIABLE THEY HAVE TO ADHERE TO POFA 2012

but there is a legal argument they can try to use that says that the most likely driver is the keeper, they would have to try to persuade a court of this, this aspect has ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE

so contract law , pofa 2012 , trespass law , consumer laws like the cra2015 , all play a part in this , but its civil law and so is the small claims court system, aka a bit like Judge Rinder without the theatrics ! , this system was brought in over 40 years ago, in 1973 , so hardly "new"

if you can find one loophole to crawl through, you win , becasue the claimant has to prove their claim and have the correct person in court

this is why you tell em nowt, make them prove their case, expose any flaws in their case such as no contract, no locus standii, poor signage , failure to make a contract , breaking pofa2012 so the wrong person is before the court, blah blah

yes cases get thrown out if they have failed pofa2012 , or a myriad of other legal points and arguments (it is court after all)

not knowing the driver will be a defence point, but they will try to show that the kepper is the driver, you on the other hand would say , nay m`lud , isnt true at all and I should not be here