Governmant Solar Scheme

moneysaving_butler

Hi all,

Cancelled today. No drama at all, they were a bit coy as I said I was told by the salesman that the income from the panels would cover the cost of the panels and they pay for them selves, but after doing the maths and speaking to you lovely people that the figures didn't add up and that i couldn't afford it.

They said i have every right to cancel if I thought it wasn't affordable. I think the salesman needs a polite word in his ear about mis-selling. It's a shame.

Not put off at all, would just rather save up and do it.

Thanks for the help, I'm glad I double checked.

Exiled_Tyke

moneysaving_butler wrote: »

Hi all,

Cancelled today. No drama at all, they were a bit coy as I said I was told by the salesman that the income from the panels would cover the cost of the panels and they pay for them selves, but after doing the maths and speaking to you lovely people that the figures didn't add up and that i couldn't afford it.

They said i have every right to cancel if I thought it wasn't affordable. I think the salesman needs a polite word in his ear about mis-selling. It's a shame.

Not put off at all, would just rather save up and do it.

Thanks for the help, I'm glad I double checked.

Phew!!! Glad they didn't give you anymore hassle and so pleased you got the right decision. But also very sorry that you are not (for the moment anyway) getting the chance to join the club. Why not now look to see if there's anyone reputable out there who can make it pay.

beng

I currently have a similar situation please bare with me for the background:
I inquired a little while back about getting solar installed but couldn't afford the perceived initial outlay of £6-7k for a system. However i got a call this week from a company about having panels installed, i explained i couldn't afford them yet the woman on the phone explained about FiT and that they could be installed with no upfront fees and in some cases the payments could be almost negated by the savings. I had nothing better to do so agreed for a chap to come round. Salesman from Saint Solar Ltd turned up had a look and suggested a 3kwp system installed all in for £6500. Did all of his calculations and claims that based on 2.2hrs a day we would get £806 a year from the government plus potential savings on our bill of over 50% (my wife doesn't work so POTENTIALLY we could see a significant saving by doing washing etc during daylight hours etc) this worked out to an average of £67 a month which after our payment to a loan company (we'd ditch theirs fairly quick) would mean would likely still be saving more then we spent on the loan payment.
There was no hard sell, seemed fairly knowledgeable explained the tariffs are changing etc at the end of March hence the push to get people on board before then if we wanted it.
Suffice to say we thought it was a great and so agreed signed up etc and had a survey out the next day, it still seemed to good to be true and so i did some quick research and the figures i was getting back from many websites was no where near that more like £200 a year at best! Rang them back late yesterday and spoke to the guy again stated all this and he assured me the figures where right and that he'd already forwarded our info and submitted to HIES (although unless i'm wrong i don't see why) and that they had accepted the figures and that i was guaranteed to get at a minimum the figures he quoted me. I asked for a breakdown as the figures where just written on paper as well so nothing 'offical' as it was late he said he wouldn't be back in the office till monday but would ring me back then and double check everything.
Is he just talking a load of BS or is there some other elements i'm missing when working out the calculations? Off top my head it was based on roughly 2500kWh a year, 30degree inc, 45deg from S.

Martyn1981

Hiya Beng.

Let's start with the £806 figure from the government. Working backwards that's an annual generation figure of 11,827kWhs. (£806/0.06815).

The Fit is 4.39p/kWh and the export rate is 4.85p/kWh but paid on a deemed 50% of generation, so the total works out at 4.39p + 2.425p = 6.815p/kWh.

In reality a 3kWp system 45d from south, so SE or SW would (at a guess) generate around 2,500 to 2,900 kWh's depending on location. Less still as we move into Scotland.

You mention a 2,500kWh figure, so that would earn you 2,500 x 6.815p/kWh = £170.

The higher 2,900kWh would be close to the £200 you mention.

Leccy savings will vary, but probably in the £80 to £160 ballpark. If Wifey is home then you'd hope to be at the higher end, but there's no promises and it depends on your current tariff, and whether you recently switched as prices have been falling.

Obviously prices of systems will vary from company to company, but for 3kWp you wouldn't want to spend more than £4k. My 2kWp system cost £4k back in 2012.

Mart.

beng

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Hiya Beng.

Let's start with the £806 figure from the government. Working backwards that's an annual generation figure of 11,827kWhs. (£806/0.06815).

The Fit is 4.39p/kWh and the export rate is 4.85p/kWh but paid on a deemed 50% of generation, so the total works out at 4.39p + 2.425p = 6.815p/kWh.

In reality a 3kWp system 45d from south, so SE or SW would (at a guess) generate around 2,500 to 2,900 kWh's depending on location. Less still as we move into Scotland.

You mention a 2,500kWh figure, so that would earn you 2,500 x 6.815p/kWh = £170.

The higher 2,900kWh would be close to the £200 you mention.

Leccy savings will vary, but probably in the £80 to £160 ballpark. If Wifey is home then you'd hope to be at the higher end, but there's no promises and it depends on your current tariff, and whether you recently switched as prices have been falling.

Obviously prices of systems will vary from company to company, but for 3kWp you wouldn't want to spend more than £4k. My 2kWp system cost £4k back in 2012.

Mart.

Thank you Mart, I'm not going crazy then. Everything you've just confirmed is what i thought from the reading i've done (should have done it before) looks like he'll be getting told to take a running jump then as there appears to be some trickery going on. He also didnt tell us that we'd need an EPC dated before the installation to get the higher rate either! He was on about them installing next week so that wouldn't have gone down well.

Martyn1981

beng wrote: »

Thank you Mart, I'm not going crazy then. Everything you've just confirmed is what i thought from the reading i've done (should have done it before) looks like he'll be getting told to take a running jump then as there appears to be some trickery going on. He also didnt tell us that we'd need an EPC dated before the installation to get the higher rate either! He was on about them installing next week so that wouldn't have gone down well.

My pleasure, but please report them if you can.

This sounds like miss selling. As a salesman he has to have a rough idea off the top of his head what the potentials are these days. That means even allowing for an overly optimistic £200 leccy savings, even a great install of 4kWp will only net about £450 pa.

If I sound like I'm being uncharitable, think about that £450 figure for a second. That's roughly the best you'd get in the UK for a 4kWp install these days.

Now tomorrow ....... will you still remember that figure? Will £806 or £806 plus leccy savings sound right to you? If a friend or neighbour mentioned PV earnings of £806 tomorrow, would you catch it, and think that doesn't sound right. Is your day to day job selling PV?

It's easy for me to sit here and judge, but seriously, does it sound right to you?

Rant over, sorry, not directed at you at all, I just get angry at these rip off merchants.

BTW, that 2.2hr figure you mentioned, assuming that gets multipled by 365 days and 3kWp = 2,409kWh, so roughly in the ballpark of the generation we've been chatting about ........ ooooohhhhh I'm going off on one again .....

Mart.

beng

Martyn1981 wrote: »

My pleasure, but please report them if you can.

This sounds like miss selling. As a salesman he has to have a rough idea off the top of his head what the potentials are these days. That means even allowing for an overly optimistic £200 leccy savings, even a great install of 4kWp will only net about £450 pa.

If I sound like I'm being uncharitable, think about that £450 figure for a second. That's roughly the best you'd get in the UK for a 4kWp install these days.

Now tomorrow ....... will you still remember that figure? Will £806 or £806 plus leccy savings sound right to you? If a friend or neighbour mentioned PV earnings of £806 tomorrow, would you catch it, and think that doesn't sound right. Is your day to day job selling PV?

It's easy for me to sit here and judge, but seriously, does it sound right to you?

Rant over, sorry, not directed at you at all, I just get angry at these rip off merchants.

BTW, that 2.2hr figure you mentioned, assuming that gets multipled by 365 days and 3kWp = 2,409kWh, so roughly in the ballpark of the generation we've been chatting about ........ ooooohhhhh I'm going off on one again .....

Mart.

No thats fair Mart, I knew that there was a payment made for PV systems but didn't know the full details and I'll put my hands up and say i should have researched it more. He worked out the figures himself from his laptop/calculator without actually telling us what the tariffs where so had no reason to not believe him at the time but as you say something didn't sit right hence why I started looking into it.
It is bad though as i'm sure for everyone suspicious or up to speed they will sell a number of systems to people who haven't a clue of these figures. When i'd looked previously i'd been quoted roughly £7k (only on rough estimates) so an all in install fee of £6k didn't seem bad but again from reading up here it appears that even that is too much for the system they are suggesting (no paperwork to hand as at work but it was for 12 panels installed on a flat roof accessible with ladders rather then scaffolding).
I'd still like to get them installed even if it was down at the £150 figure but only when i have the physical money not on a 'free' scheme like the OP as was offered, as this obviously isn't workable and seems to be just make believe. It will be interesting what excuses/reasons he comes up with when he calls on Monday (if he calls). Thankfully i haven't handed over any money and have been fortunate to find this forum before it got too far.

jimjames

moneysaving_butler wrote: »

I'm surprised that this government scheme is endorsed by Martin Lewis........is this also not true and they are pulling a fast one. I have a bad whiff from this scheme now.

https://www.solarguide.co.uk/martin-lewis-promotes-solar-pv-but-warns-off-free-debt-based-panel-offers

Glad you found out soon enough to cancel. Just to be clear this is not endorsed by the government or by Martin Lewis. The FIT payments is a government scheme but how you pay for those panels is down to you and Martin certainly doesn't recommend a loan for them.

He may want to know that his name is being used to promote them inaccurately though. Having read the article linked above it does appear that Martin isn't very clear on the benefits and FIT scheme himself though

The amount they pay you for generating electricity for the national grid is about twice what they charge you for getting electricity from the national grid. So if you’ve got an excess capacity of electricity you are being paid a good rate.

Rather misses out that all generation is paid the FIT generation rate.

jimjames

Martyn1981 wrote: »

In reality a 3kWp system 45d from south, so SE or SW would (at a guess) generate around 2,500 to 2,900 kWh's depending on location. Less still as we move into Scotland.

We have a 3kWp system that is almost perfect alignment with no shading and in South East. Our generation has varied between 3100 and 3300 kWh per year which from readings posted here would appear to be about the maximum possible from a 3kWp system in the UK. So someone suggesting massively more than that is telling total porkies!

We had some bad sales visits when we bought our panels in 2011 but if anything it appears that they are now worse than they were back then which is pretty appalling.

Martyn1981

beng wrote: »

No thats fair Mart, I knew that there was a payment made for PV systems but didn't know the full details and I'll put my hands up and say i should have researched it more.

Hi Benq. Just to be clear, I wasn't having a go at you, not in any way whatsoever.

I don't think you should know the numbers, and you did exactly the right thing in asking for advice. I'd also say that all the info you posted made sense, and seemed to cross reference and confirm all info.

What I was saying (ranting about to you, not at you) is that the salesman can't possibly not know that £806 is impossible.

I was trying to show that tomorrow, armed with just this chat, not the benefit of a full time PV sales job, you'll know that £806 isn't possible ...... so how can he not?

Apologies again if you thought I was ranting at you. You did everything right.


Regarding PV, don't give up, but at the same time don't hold your breath. My thoughts are that domestic PV FiT only now works for ideal situations. that translates as large system, possibly 4kWp+ (as costs aren't proportional), south facing, or certainly SE to SW, southern UK, and no shading. Probably not split system either, as more scaffolding, and less ideal orientation.

Basically the govt have removed 'inclusive' from FiT, so smaller, non southerly, non south facing, shaded etc etc systems don't really work. I suppose you could argue that the scheme should only support ideal locations, in the same way that wind or PV farms have to find a suitable location, but home owners and businesses can't choose where they install PV.

Hopefully 'no scaffolding' will bring the cost down a bit, and you should aim for 285Wp panels at the very least, so that's 3.42kWp, but double check the rules on flat roofs. You will probably need planning permission if the panels don't follow the pitch of the roof, so if the panels will be pitched ....... just check first. If you shop around I'd hope you could get this done for under £4k, but the whole industry is in a mess now!

best of luck.

You also mentioned end of Mch FiT, but I don't think the FiT drops much each quarter. I'll find the figures.

Edit: Here you go, they drop a little each qtr from 4.39p Qtr1 2016 to 3.55p Q1 2019. So no real rush to beat each drop. However, worth noting that the maximum deployment each qtr is quite small, and once used up, your install goes into a queue till 'space' is available in a future qtr. So far deployment has been below max, and the spare gets carried forward into the next qtr. M.

Mart.