Can I claim Universal Credit (or JSA) if I voluntarily reduce my hours to 8 per week?

Schnurrbart

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Full [FONT=&quot]title if space permitted:
[/FONT][/FONT]Can I claim Universal Credit (or JSA) - without sanctions - if I voluntarily reduce my hours to 8 per week?

I'm in quite a pickle at the mo[FONT=&quot]ment, and need some sound advice before deciding how to proceed. Massive thanks in advance to anybody who can help me with this.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am single, over 25, have no depend[FONT=&quot]e[/FONT]nts, and am a private tenant. I work approximately 23 hours per week (my contract is for 20) at £6.89 per hour, with no prospect of significantly increasing my hours, certainly not up to 30. As I work fewer than 30 hours per week I do not qualify for Working Tax Credits. Surely I am not alone in considering this to be a fundamental flaw in the WTC system - it’s supposed to boost the salary of those on a low wage, yet as I work 23 hours per week I am in even more need of that boost than somebody who works at least 7 hours a week more than I do! Am I missing something vital here? I receive an element of Housing Benefit based on my low income, but nowhere near enough to offset the difference between my current income and the income I would receive if I were eligible for WTC.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The amount I have left each week (wages + Housing Benefit minus rent + council tax) is barely above what I would receive if I were not working at all and claiming JobSeekers Allowance (I have used the benefit calculators on entitledto.org and turn2us.org to compare the two scenarios, and ensured that all figures I have fed into the calculator are correct, e.g. obtaining a weekly rent amount by multiplying my calendar monthly rent by 12, then dividing by 52, and obtaining an average weekly rate of pay - which fluctuates - by adding up my last 52 weeks’ worth of payslips, then dividing by 52). If I factor in my travel costs, I am actually slightly worse off. I also used t[FONT=&quot]he calculators to see [FONT=&quot]what I would receive [FONT=&quot]under Universal Credit - a much high[FONT=&quot]er amount than JSA and HB combined - but more on that [FONT=&quot]later.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Obviously, the best way out of this would be to find a job with more hours (ideally 30 or over) and/or better pay. However, this is proving very difficult (I won’t go into the various reasons now, more for the sake of time than anything else - I will be more than happy to elaborate on any aspect of my situation if anybody feels that they can help me, but require further details in order to do so), and in the meantime I am struggling to make ends meet while in a job that I detest, which prevents me from developing any proper routine in my life (again, I won’t go into specifics here), and which is causing me all the typical symptoms of stress/anxiety/depression.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]I[/FONT]f I chose to leave, then I would be sanctioned for 26 weeks, so that’s not a viable solution. I could possibly evade the sanction by taking the long-term sick route out of my job, but I would still have the black mark of extended sick leave on my employment record, which would be tricky to explain to a potential employer - if, indeed, I even got as far as the point where an employer would allow me the opportunity to explain, which is unlikely. Another alternative, barely worth mentioning because it is so [FONT=&quot]undesirable[/FONT], is getting the sack (resulting in both a sanction and a black mark on my work history) - I only mention it here in acknowledgement of the fact that, technically, it counts as another way out.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It was looking as though I had no options other than to keep trying to secure another job, all the while becoming more depressed and struggling financially, sacrificing my present happiness for fear of the consequences of not sticking with the job.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Then I had an idea. Some people at my place of work are on 8 hour contracts. So I went back to the benefit calculators and found that I would be significantly better off if I worked 8 hours and received Universal Credit[FONT=&quot] - [/FONT]around £77 a week better off in fact. I asked my manager about it;[FONT=&quot] he[/FONT] told me that I could drop to 8 hours as long as I understood that I would not be able to revert back to 20.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]S[FONT=&quot]o, h[/FONT][/FONT]ere, at last, are my questions. Are the DWP likely to ask my employer why they have cut my contract from 20 to 8 hours, and what will happen if my employer tells them that I requested it? Would they try to sanction me for effectively engineering a situation where I was working less than 16 hours per week in order to obtain benefits? Would it make any difference if I claimed - as is the truth - that I did it out of financial necessity?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Assuming that I am eligible for Universal Credit - which I need to look further into due to some conflicting information regarding the rollout of UC in my geographical area - the pros of dropping to 8 hours would far outweigh the cons.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Cons: being back in the benefits system with its attendant hoops to jump through, e.g. possibly having to apply for unsuitable jobs at the DWP’s behest, risking sanctions for minor (and probably inadvertent) infractions.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Pros:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 - Better off financially.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 - Less time spent in a toxic work environment.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 - More time available to look for another job, re-train, have a life, etc![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 - I would be able to apply for other jobs from the position of somebody already employed, which would increase my chances.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I have my hopes pinned on this possibility, but this means I am also incredibly fearful of it going pear-shaped. If I drop to 8 hours, but am then sanctioned for voluntarily reducing my hours to a level at which I could claim benefits, then I don’t know what I would do - in my current state of mind, it’s not something I want to dwell on.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Has anyone reading this been in the same, or a similar, situation? Is there anyone, perhaps a current DWP employee, who could tell me the likely outcome of voluntarily dropping to an 8 hour contract and applying for UC (when the DWP knows from my employer that the reduction was voluntary)?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Phew. I hope the time it's taken to t[FONT=&quot]ype all this hasn't been time wasted, and I look forward to some (helpful) replies! [/FONT]Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. As I said before, I’m happy to provide additional information if you think it would help you to help me. Thanks.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]P.S. In case anyone wants to know, here’s how I ended up in my current predicament (copied, pasted, and slightly modified from my post in d3liberate’s thread entitled ‘Am I Entitled To JSA?’):[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To pre-empt anyone asking why I took the job in the first place, here's why. I was unemployed at the time, and the JobCentre put me forward for the interview. The interviewer told me that, even though the contract would be for 20 hours per week, I would be able to do regular overtime to make up 30 hours, thereby allowing me to claim Working Tax Credits (which I had told him was a crucial factor for me). I was offered the job, and would not have been able to turn it down without being sanctioned, as the offer was for a job with a contract of 16 hours or more. So I accepted it, but the 30 hours per week assurance turned out to be a load of hot air. I've been there for a year and a half, and my average hours are around 22 to 23 per week. On a few occasions I have worked under 20 hours in a week (get this: it's written into the 20 hour contract that my employer can give me fewer hours than the contract states!).[/FONT]

Guest101

Instead of lowering hours, have you considered a second job for 7 - 10 hours?

Schnurrbart

Thanks for the suggestion Guest101. I have already considered it, but it's not really an option for me.

Firstly, I do not have set days or shifts at my place of work. I am expected to be available for any 4 hour shift between 8am and 8pm Monday to Friday, any 5 hour shift on Saturday (8am-1pm or 1pm-6pm), and any Sunday shift (10am-4:30pm) - this is why, as mentioned in my first post, it is impossible for me to establish a routine. My employer would expect me to perform any additional job around whatever hours they had rota'd me for, and would not be particularly flexible regarding my needs versus its own 'business needs', e.g. they would not agree to never rota me for a Monday so that I could do a second job on Mondays.

Secondly, not as important but still worthy of consideration is that, even if it were somehow possible to work at my current place and hold a second position elsewhere, it would be difficult to book time off, since authorisation would be subject to the business needs of two different employers.

Poppie68

Looking for a new full-time job is surely the answer, not reducing the hours you have now so you can claim benefits?. Or change your job too 2 part time jobs that are compatible, it's not compulsory to claim benefits, and you are allowed to work more than 30 hours and be self sufficient...

Mattygroves2

So how about evening bar or similar work which would fit around those hours ?

I'd be spending all my spare time trying to find another job that is either full time or at least 30 hours and save your holiday for interviews.

FBaby

1 - Better off financially.
2 - Less time spent in a toxic work environment.
3 - More time available to look for another job, re-train, have a life, etc!
4 - I would be able to apply for other jobs from the position of somebody already employed, which would increase my chances.

So you are single, have no dependents, work only 23 hours a week, but yet think that this is not enough to actively look for a full-time position and have life.

Am I missing something vital here?

I think you are. What you didn't want to elaborate in your email is the key issue: Why you are not managing to get yourself a full-time job, which is what you should be doing as a single person without dependents.

Schnurrbart

Ah, I knew this would happen!

I posted for advice and assistance regarding a decision I have already made (eligibility for UC permitting), not as an invitation to others to comment (however elliptically) on the ethics of that decision, or to suggest alternatives to it. I'm torn between responding to the more critical posts, which would basically be to justify and further explain myself, and ignoring them since they are distinctly unhelpful. Yet I feel myself taking the bait, so...

In the hope of preventing repeats of some of the suggestions/comments already made:

1 - A second job is not viable (see post #3).
2 - I am, and have been, looking for a job with more hours (not just jobs of 30+ hours). That fact is not somehow negated by my lack of success in actually getting one. I find it telling that the default assumption is that I am not/have not been looking for other work. Nevertheless, I acknowledge that I should have stated this more clearly.
3 - This particular job and the concomitant financial pressure are having an adverse effect on my health here and now. The prospect of continuing to suffer on the off-chance that I might be able to make a direct transition from this job to a better one at some point in the future is an increasingly dire one. And is it naive of me to believe that being happier and healthier than I am at present can only have an all-round positive effect on my job applications, interviews, ability to network, etc.?
4 - I have already said that I do not regard what I'm proposing to do as an ideal solution, but as the best strategy available to me at the present time.
5 - As is abundantly clear from numbers 3 & 4 in my list of 'Pros', I would have no intention of deliberately staying in the '8 hours work + Universal Credit' situation. It would not be a permanent solution. I know damn well that the DWP would do their utmost to get me back off benefits, but even if that were not so, my feelings about my job are such that I consider even 8 hours there to be 8 hours too many.

How clear, how simple, how uncomplicated can I make this? I have thought this matter through, and decided that - if feasible - the 8hrs/UC option, although far from ideal, is the best one for me until I get a full-time job. Those who disagree can tut-tut away to their hearts' content. Or, as is more likely, continue to post on this thread with no aim other than to put me down for deciding on a course of action which offends their sensibilities.

FBaby, I guess my question "Am I missing something vital here?" was ripe for some wag to pluck out of its context of the imbalance of the WTC system - and you were the plucker. Well done! To elaborate on the issue of why I have thus far failed to secure full-time employment, I could cite a number of possible/probable factors, such as an admittedly patchy CV, a lack of qualifications & skills, a lack of experience in any type of work except unskilled work, a scarcity of full-time unskilled vacancies, and the ever-increasing amount of competition in the job market. I agree with you: it is a key issue, and one that concerns me much more than you probably think, but it has limited relevance to the purpose of my post, hence a degree of reluctance on my part to go into it more. I do look for other jobs, and I do apply for them if I feel I'm in with a chance, but I do not know when I will get a successful result. Meanwhile my situation continues to deteriorate, hence my conviction that I have to do something now. I have no control over an employer's decision to interview me (obviously I can exert a limited measure of influence via my application) at some unspecified time in the future, whereas I do have control - right now - over whether to cut my hours in a job to which I am unsuited, and to be happier and financially better off as a result.

Actually, no, after reading all this sage advice, I've changed my mind. I think I'll continue to live on the breadline, feeling miserable and wretched, having little appetite, little energy, little enthusiasm for life, sleeping badly, arguing with my long-term (non-cohabiting) partner, worrying about my future etc. purely in order to conform to your dogmatic conception of how I should be. Thank you for showing me the path to true (self-)righteousness!

Would anyone else like to completely miss the point of my post, while insulting me (by implying that I have a moral duty to remain in a situation where I am desperately unhappy) in the process?

FBaby

To answer your question then! Are you likely to be sanctioned for claiming UC when you voluntarily reduce your hours to claim benefits? Yes, you are.

Is it likely to make it harder for you to get the full-time job you are looking for? Yes, it will.

Darksparkle

What is a sanction?

A ‘sanction’ is when your Universal Credit is stopped or reduced for a period of time, usually because the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) say you have not done enough to meet your ‘work-related requirements’.

These requirements should be set out in your Claimant Commitment. They tell you what, if anything, you need to do to prepare for work, find work, or increase your earnings if you are already working. The requirements you have to meet depend on your personal circumstances.

How long do sanctions last for?

The length of a sanction depends on which work-related requirements you have to meet, what the Jobcentre says you failed to do, and whether you have been sanctioned before. There are four different levels of sanction:

Higher Level: if you have to meet the ‘work preparation requirement’, and you fail to take part in Mandatory Work Activity; if you have to meet the ‘work search requirement’, and you fail to apply for a particular job when told to do so; if you have to meet the ‘work availability requirement’, and you refuse a job offer; or if you leave work or reduce your hours of work, whether voluntarily or due to ‘misconduct’ (while claiming Universal Credit or just before you claim). You will be sanctioned for 91 days for your first higher level sanction in any 364 day period, 182 days for your second, or 1095 days for your third. There are special rules for how long your sanction will last if it is for leaving work before you claimed Universal Credit.

If a single person or couple have no children, disabilities and are under 60 then gov do not want to encourage part time work when there is no reason for them to do so. This is why the minimum hours are 30. They will then assist those working full time (as they consider 30hrs to be) who are on a low income.

If they were to pay WTC to a single person capable of working full time but who does not, what would there incentive be for that person to try and up their hours?

tomtontom

None of your reasons for not getting a second job are valid. Perhaps you should focus on how you can make two jobs work for you, rather than how you can make the state pay for your lifestyle choices? You're coming across as defeatist, an attitude that will certainly put off potential employers.

HappyMJ

You won't get the jobseeker element if you reduce your hours to 8 but your housing element will increase to potentially cover your rent in full. You do not need to be looking for work to get housing benefit.

Another thing...

If you were to claim working tax credits the housing element of your claim would be reduced by what you get in working tax credit so you wouldn't be any better off at all.