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Homework for 5 year olds

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  • maman
    maman Posts: 29,693 Forumite
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    mumps wrote: »
    The issue isn't about if children have tests or assessments or whatever it is about if it is right to pressure a child about the tests. This mother is being told the child needs to do more work for the test, not for the child's benefit.


    Although pigpen's right that teachers have always assessed pupils and always will it's the way the tests are used to categorise schools and teachers that causes problems. So the school is put under pressure to keep improving the results and the teachers transfer that pressure to the children.
  • mumps
    mumps Posts: 6,285 Forumite
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    maman wrote: »
    Although pigpen's right that teachers have always assessed pupils and always will it's the way the tests are used to categorise schools and teachers that causes problems. So the school is put under pressure to keep improving the results and the teachers transfer that pressure to the children.

    The other problem, that I hear from my two children who teach in secondary schools, is that children come up to them having been pushed to get level 4 but aren't solidly achieving that level. I suppose being taught to the test would be appropriate. They then go backwards in their first year at senior school as the school seeks more solid foundations in the subject. The children and parents are then upset/frustrated as they children have already "done" that although the reality is they don't know it e.g. one of mine teaches maths and will have children moaning about doing say angles of a triangle. "But Miss we have done that." In reality when given problems to work out they might have "done" it but they can't "do" it. I'm not sure if that makes sense, I hope so:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

    Is there any point really in ticking boxes to say that have done this and that and achieved this and that if six weeks later they can't demonstrate any knowledge of it other than to say they have "done" it.
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  • mumps
    mumps Posts: 6,285 Forumite
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    Nicki wrote: »
    Statistically speaking a child who does not achieve at least a level 2 (be that 2a,b or c) by the end of KS1 will not achieve level 4 at the end of KS2 and will lag behind for the remainder of their school careers. This is why teachers (and head teachers) do not like to see children (who do not have identified special educational needs) fail to meet level 2 by the end of year 2. Having a "long tail" (a number of children who missed level 2) also affects the outcomes for the whole class right up to the end of year 6 as although work is of course differentiated if there are a lot of kids doing badly, the brighter kids don't get the attention they also deserve.

    So there is nothing wrong in my opinion (speaking as someone with about 12 years experience at governor level in analysing results) in trying to give the kids who just need a bit more practice to master concepts a little more of a push when younger as statistically speaking it will pay dividends for the whole class in the end. Kids with special educational needs which doesn't seem to include the OP's daughter are different and need extra in school support.

    I wonder what the statistics would be like if the children who aren't quite making level 4, or whatever, didn't get an extra push to do it? As all schools seem to concentrate on those borderline children the statistics won't really tell us if it makes a difference in reality. At the moment the children who don't get level 4 are presumably nowhere near the top of level 3 or they would have got that push so the statistics are skewed.

    Statistics are fun, bit like Gove wanting all children to be above average.
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  • Jagraf
    Jagraf Posts: 2,462 Forumite
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    Isn't it ironic that so many parents choose schools based on results yet don't agree with the tests. Not all of course, but many.
    Never again will the wolf get so close to my door :eek:
  • pigpen
    pigpen Posts: 41,152 Forumite
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    Nicki wrote: »
    Statistically speaking a child who does not achieve at least a level 2 (be that 2a,b or c) by the end of KS1 will not achieve level 4 at the end of KS2 and will lag behind for the remainder of their school careers.


    no... MIGHT not get level 4 in KS2.. A lot depends on the home circumstances which can change massively in 3 years.

    My 16 year old didn't get level 1 in year 2.. he got 4's and 5's in KS2.. so even that is not a given and a child not achieving level 1 gets a lot of support.. it isn't always due to being SEN, children new to the country with little/no English will not get level 2 and they are not exempt from the results.

    My 20 y/o who does have SEN's got level 1's then level 3 with 1 level 4.. he had a reader and a scribe for both lots and extra time due to severe dyslexia.

    With adequate support and an understanding most children will get level 4's.. but some people just have different talents. the 'stupid kid' in my class at school struggled immensely with academic subjects but was a wonderful sportsman.. we cant all be good at everything.
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  • mumps
    mumps Posts: 6,285 Forumite
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    edited 30 January 2016 at 8:04PM
    pigpen wrote: »
    no... MIGHT not get level 4 in KS2.. A lot depends on the home circumstances which can change massively in 3 years.

    My 16 year old didn't get level 1 in year 2.. he got 4's and 5's in KS2.. so even that is not a given and a child not achieving level 1 gets a lot of support.. it isn't always due to being SEN, children new to the country with little/no English will not get level 2 and they are not exempt from the results.

    My 20 y/o who does have SEN's got level 1's then level 3 with 1 level 4.. he had a reader and a scribe for both lots and extra time due to severe dyslexia.

    With adequate support and an understanding most children will get level 4's.. but some people just have different talents. the 'stupid kid' in my class at school struggled immensely with academic subjects but was a wonderful sportsman.. we cant all be good at everything.

    Home circumstances can change but also children don't develop in a straight line, one might have been just about to have a jump ahead after the tests, doing it a month later might have had a different result and 4 years later they are way ahead. Lots can change.

    Very true, the bit in bold, out of my group of teenage friends the one who is a millionaire now is the one who wasn't academic, played hookey from school and left at 15. No good at school but a brilliant mechanic who worked really hard.
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  • Excuse my ignorance, having been out of the education system for 20 plus years (and I never had tests at primary level) but are these levels that children should achieve for the schools benefit or for benefit of the child ? Much as I would love my child to achieve the highest level possible, I will certainly not be putting pressure on him to do so. I will continue to carry on as I am until the end of year unless the teacher informs me that he needs extra help.

    We all have hopes and aspirations for our children but it is up to them to have their own hopes and aspirations. At present my sons only hopes are that he will get some chocolate and he can go and see grandad and his aspiration is to be a superhero - because he is 5!!
    :)
  • LilElvis
    LilElvis Posts: 5,835 Forumite
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    Excuse my ignorance, having been out of the education system for 20 plus years (and I never had tests at primary level) but are these levels that children should achieve for the schools benefit or for benefit of the child ? Much as I would love my child to achieve the highest level possible, I will certainly not be putting pressure on him to do so. I will continue to carry on as I am until the end of year unless the teacher informs me that he needs extra help.

    We all have hopes and aspirations for our children but it is up to them to have their own hopes and aspirations. At present my sons only hopes are that he will get some chocolate and he can go and see grandad and his aspiration is to be a superhero - because he is 5!!
    :)

    You might not remember it, but you were tested. I only know that I was tested 40 years ago because my Mum was a primary school teacher in the same area. The results weren't given to parents, as a rule, but there were IQ tests, reading and maths.
  • Nicki
    Nicki Posts: 8,166 Forumite
    Excuse my ignorance, having been out of the education system for 20 plus years (and I never had tests at primary level) but are these levels that children should achieve for the schools benefit or for benefit of the child ? Much as I would love my child to achieve the highest level possible, I will certainly not be putting pressure on him to do so. I will continue to carry on as I am until the end of year unless the teacher informs me that he needs extra help.

    We all have hopes and aspirations for our children but it is up to them to have their own hopes and aspirations. At present my sons only hopes are that he will get some chocolate and he can go and see grandad and his aspiration is to be a superhero - because he is 5!!
    :)

    Both. For the child, if they have achieved the standard of learning which the level reflects they have a firm foundation on which to build future learning and their long term academic outcome tends to be better. For the school, if children without SEN are not reaching these levels, it is an indicator that teaching is inadequate and there are likely to be repercussions at the next Ofsted inspection.
  • ViolaLass
    ViolaLass Posts: 5,764 Forumite
    Nicki wrote: »
    Both. For the child, if they have actuallyachieved the standard of learning which the level reflects they may have a firm foundation on which to build future learning and their long term academic outcome tends to be better on average, throughout the whole population. For the school, if children without SEN are not reaching these levels, it is an indicator that teaching [STRIKE]is[/STRIKE] may be inadequate or there might be other issues e.g. very poor area and there are likely to be repercussions at the next Ofsted inspection. True

    These levels that 'must' be achieved are based on statistics that look at the whole population. It does NOT follow that a child not getting level 2 in KS1 will not do well later on, they are just statistically speaking, less likely to do so (but lots of other things make a difference too). Pushing them at KS1 may or may not be the answer - if their understanding is not solid but they 'get the grade' then no good has been done.

    The tests are for the sake of the school, not the child. The teacher should already know how that child is doing (and tests on one day do not necessarily reflect what a child is or isn't capable of). The tests are to judge the school, NOT the child.
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