Updates to Land Registry records

jfh7gwa

Hi,

My sister and I are co-executors and co-beneficiaries of a deceased family member's estate, let's call her Lilly. Part of those duties is wrapping up Lilly's property estate. I think I understand how we need to proceed, but a sense check by MSE would be greatly appreciated.

Property A
Lilly owned this property as a Joint Tenant with her late husband. Both of their names are on the Land Registry title deed. We plan to sell the house.

• In order to remove her late husband from the Title, it seems to be a fee-free update, via form DJP which should be sent in along with his death certificate. Fine.
• Next ... in order to transfer (assent) Lilly's now-sole-ownership, it'd be done by sending form AP1, along with the Grant of Probate, with my identity proven via ID1, via an "alteration of the register" request at £40.
  Questions:
  1. Lilly's previous surname is on the Title, but none of the forms take this scenario into account. Presumably we'd have to send along her marriage certificate with a cover letter too, or is there a more elegant way to handle this?
  2. Although there are two beneficiaries, I'm assuming it would be sufficient to submit the ID1 form for me - or do both beneficiaries need to complete ID1 forms? It's not clear.

Property B
Lilly owned this property as a Tenant in Common with another, living family member. Both of their names are on the Land Registry title deed. This living family member will continue to live there, but we want Lilly's name removed and both beneficiary names added (i.e. Lilly's 50% share converts into a 25% share to each beneficiary).

• This would be achieved by sending TP1, with a Grant of Probate, and with my identity proven via ID1) via an "alteration of the register" at £40.
  Questions:
  1. Again, although there are two beneficiaries, I'm assuming it would be sufficient to submit the ID1 form for me - or do both beneficiaries need to do this?
  2. Section 11 of the form sets out what type of co-ownership is requested. We'd want Tenants in Common. Yet nowhere on the form does it clearly take into account the existing living relative. This would make sense if the form is only dealing with the half-portion of the house which was owned by Lilly, and by ticking the 2nd box, we're simply converting her 50% ownership into two 25% chunks. Is that interpretation correct?

I'll be calling the Land Registry office to check into all this, once they're open in office hours, but I know MSE has a lot of collective knowledge that might be of help in the meantime.

I'd also been hoping that other people have asked similar questions about the Land Registry before, but I've not found anything concrete, so maybe by writing this stuff in a new thread (with answers once I have them) might help future posters.:j

G_M

The Land Registry rep who posts here will answer (I'm sure) on Monday. He does not work weekends!

However I believe you are wrong about the ID checks. Think of yourself as acting in place of a solicitor doing conveyancing (submitting forms to the LR). It is not the solicitor who needs ID checking, it is the people buying/selling the property.

So in this case, each Beneficiary will need ID1 completed for each transfer.

It is relatively common for there to be conflicting names on documents (especially where women have got married), but so long as there is a clear paper evidence that Miss Jones is the same person as Mrs Smith the LR should be satisfied.

I imagine that as well as registering the property as Tenants In Common, a Deed will be required specifying the % ownership of the 3 named owners.

SmlSave

If you are planning to sell the joint tenants property (both owners dead) then don't bother updating the title. When the house sells your solicitor will send the buyers solicitor a copy of the death certificates and marriage certificate, your grant of probate and that's that. Easy

You need a AP1, TR1 (not tp1 as that deals with part of the actual land not the equity) ID1s for each beneficiary and the existing co-owner.
On the TP1 you'd tick the third box own the property as then put tenants in common with 50% equity to ...., 25% equity to..... and 25% equity to.....

As a very quick overview.

G_M

SmlSave wrote: »

If you are planning to sell the joint tenants property (both owners dead) then don't bother updating the title. When the house sells your solicitor will send the buyers solicitor a copy of the death certificates and marriage certificate, your grant of probate and that's that. Easy

You need a AP1, TR1 (not tp1 as that deals with part of the actual land not the equity) ID1s for each beneficiary and the existing co-owner.
On the TP1 you'd tick the third box own the property as then put tenants in common with 50% equity to ...., 25% equity to..... and 25% equity to.....

As a very quick overview.

OP is not selling either property.

No solicitor involved (as I understand it).

But yes, TR1, not TP1 - the property is not being split into 2 or more parts each owned by different people.

SmlSave

Property A
Lilly owned this property as a Joint Tenant with her late husband. Both of their names are on the Land Registry title deed. We plan to sell the house.

I very rarely disagree with anything you say g_m but see emboldened

G_M

Ooops!

SmlSave

It's ok hun, just sign its time for a cuppa and biscuit.

G_M

As smlSave says, if the property is to be sold, it does not need to be transferred into the Benficiaries names first.

As Executer, you sell the property, as currently registered, direct to the buyer. You then distribute the funds received to the Beneficiaries (less expenses).

If there is no mortgage on the property, you could DIY the conveyancing assuming you feel competant, but given the various additional complexities of 2 deceased registered owners plus anomaly in the registered name, a solicitor might make things easier.

jfh7gwa

Thanks for the steer, folks - and so quickly on a Saturday night (!).

So to summarise, to ensure that I've understood:

For Property A - we definitely plan to sell it. No mortgage. We'll be using a solicitor to help with the conveyancing when sold.

However, it's good to hear that we could skip the "transfer the Title to beneficiaries" interim step before we sell (as long as we provide 2 x death certificates, the marriage certificate & the grant of probate). I guess the Land Registry will confirm that for me; I hadn't realised there might be an official rep posting on here. Great

For Property B - there is no mortgage on this property either. No plans to sell as the co-owner, living relative will continue to live there.

Thank you for the correction that we'd need AP1 and TR1 completed. And three ID1 forms (one for me, one for my sister, one for the living relative who owns half). And we'd have to tick the "they are to hold the property on trust:" then provide the 50%, 25%, 25% "tenants in common" of unequal shares info. Plus potentially a Deed which outlines the ownership situation. I suspect we'll end up getting a solicitor's help with this too.

Thanks again, all. MSE to the rescue again!

SmlSave

If Property B is owned as tenants in common and the shares stated on the TR1, as long as a copy of the TR1 is kept safe (best for each owner to have one) then there's no real need for a Trust Deed to be drawn up, although it might make the owners feels more secure.

It is a very good idea for anyone who owns property as tenants in common to have a valid Will which dictates what you wish to happen with your share. Many people include a right to reside for the other owner.

jfh7gwa

I know it's slightly cheeky to add in extra questions, but what would happen if the ID1 form is not/cannot be provided by the existing living relative that owns half of Property B?

Without going into details, imagine a situation where this person is not mentally competent enough to fill in the ID1 or obtain a photograph (but has no actual guardian in a legal sense). Or if they were not on speaking terms with the other two owners who've just inherited the property because they had been incorrectly assuming they were the single beneficiary of Lilly's will. Or some other reason e.g. they were in a coma.

I'm not sure if there's any real pragmatic answer to this (other than "well, the Land Registry would simply refuse to update the Title")... but it may be that the living relative won't be in a position to complete an ID1, so how would we progress that with the Land Registry...?

We (the two beneficiaries) can't force the living relative to complete the ID1 form from hundreds of miles away...