taking a landlord through small claims court

RobMolyneux

thequant wrote: »

keep your cool and be clinical about how you take this guy to task. Ultimately people like this, get away with it because people dont know or stand up for their rights.

Reading between the lines, it sounds like you will end up in court with this guy. If you do go down the legal process, then it becomes a game and this guy will use every trick in the book, you need to be calm and play the game back.

I'm pretty good generally at building the facts of an issue, as i've had to do it plenty for work, but i know what you mean, so thanks.

He actually works for a property company, which means he'll have access to people who presumably know what they're doing and talking about - which might be a challenge - but the way i see it, he's bang to rights over at the very least the deposit issue, and i'd think him working in the sector will go against him as theres no excuse not to know the rules on the deposit scheme, HMO registration, etc.



I have a few more questions should he not give me an acceptable offer by the deadline i've given him.

a) the fees i have to pay for the court claim are dependent upon the claim value - as I'm claiming for "up to 3x" the deposit, does that make my whole claim value £200 + £1475, (meaning much higher fees than when i started looking into it assuming just £200) - if so, fine, i just want to know i'm doing the right thing

b) the mcol website gives me quite a short amount of space to detail the claim, and says i can follow up with more information direct to the defendant - is this follow up info where i need to set out all the nitty gritty, or is that a completely different witness statement? people have said to keep my powder dry, and not let him prepare too much in advance - so i'm a little confused

c) he's obviously going to claim im not a tenant, which by every definition i was, so i'm going to need a witness statement from someone. Would it be weak if that witness statement is from a former housemate, who might then want to take the guy to court over the same issue in the future? Would an independent witness be better? (I can ask the next door neighbour, who can confirm he was only ever around from time to time, and for short periods, if i need to.

d) he's now been back in touch via text asking for my full name and address (which was first under the pretence of being "for his records" and then "so he can post me a cheque" - I dont want this guy knowing my address as he made a threat to harm me (to my housemate) previously, and has bragged to me about being involved in violent acts. He's also said to a guy who still lives there "he (me) doesnt want to give me his address as he knows i'll take him to court" - though over quite what i dont really know!!

so, is it possible to not reveal my address to him when going to the courts - it looks like i have to disclose it from what i can see.

e) I tried to end his texting, and counter the "address for the cheque" thing by texting back saying I've issued a letter, he has 14 days to respond, and has my bank account details to transfer the money. He replied saying that 14 days would also be adequate for me to sort out the issue of contributing to his heating costs. I've told him over the phone (before i issued the letter, and before it got as far as a formal dispute) that i'll be happy to look at this after he returns my money, but now i've started this process i'll not be doing anything about it at all until its all resolved.

I reiterated by reply that i'd sent him the letter, that he should review and respond, and that i'd only be conversing by email from now on (no texts) until resolved.

He's then emailed me a (albeit broken) link to his online utility bills. Will it go against me that i'm ignoring his request now that i've started action? I've been fair with him, and set out my intentions, so i wouldnt like to think so, but might a judge suggest that i'm not doing my bit to resolve this and perhaps suggest mediation rather than a hearing?

bouicca21

DD lived in what turned out to be an unlicensed HMO when at uni. The council prosecuted and if successful this would have opened up a case for the tenants to claim repayment of their rent.

In the event the prosecution failed on a technicality. It was the first such prosecution the council had brought and they messed up on basic procedure.

I suspect the LL in this case might find this costs him far more than the penalty over the deposit(s).

G_M

RobMolyneux wrote: »

a) the fees i have to pay for the court claim are dependent upon the claim value - as I'm claiming for "up to 3x" the deposit, does that make my whole claim value £200 + £1475, (meaning much higher fees than when i started looking into it assuming just £200) - if so, fine, i just want to know i'm doing the right thing
Either
* ask the local court officials - they can advise on procedure & costs (but not give legal advice)
* pay fee on total claimed ie 3 times penalty

b) the mcol website gives me quite a short amount of space to detail the claim, and says i can follow up with more information direct to the defendant - is this follow up info where i need to set out all the nitty gritty, or is that a completely different witness statement? people have said to keep my powder dry, and not let him prepare too much in advance - so i'm a little confused
I would include the full claim, together with background and supporting evidence. There must be a way to attach further pages to the claim?

c) he's obviously going to claim im not a tenant, which by every definition i was, so i'm going to need a witness statement from someone. Would it be weak if that witness statement is from a former housemate, who might then want to take the guy to court over the same issue in the future? Would an independent witness be better? (I can ask the next door neighbour, who can confirm he was only ever around from time to time, and for short periods, if i need to.
* you can have too few witnesses
* you cannot have too many
* independant witnesses carry more weight than partial ones
* "only ever around from time to time, and for short periods, "
Careful! He might be a long-distance lorry driver who is only around from time to time. You need witnesses to say he does not live/sleep there. Ever.
* A witness or evidence to say where he does live would help.

d) he's now been back in touch via text asking for my full name and address (which was first under the pretence of being "for his records" and then "so he can post me a cheque" - I dont want this guy knowing my address as he made a threat to harm me (to my housemate) previously, and has bragged to me about being involved in violent acts. He's also said to a guy who still lives there "he (me) doesnt want to give me his address as he knows i'll take him to court" - though over quite what i dont really know!!

so, is it possible to not reveal my address to him when going to the courts - it looks like i have to disclose it from what i can see.
Will the Defendant be able to see my address?

Yes. The address you provide when completing the claim will be displayed on the claim form, which is sent to the Defendant. Once you submit the claim, the Court cannot withdraw it before the Claim form is served on the Defendant.
FAQs

e) I tried to end his texting, and counter the "address for the cheque" thing by texting back saying I've issued a letter, he has 14 days to respond, and has my bank account details to transfer the money. He replied saying that 14 days would also be adequate for me to sort out the issue of contributing to his heating costs. I've told him over the phone (before i issued the letter, and before it got as far as a formal dispute) that i'll be happy to look at this after he returns my money, but now i've started this process i'll not be doing anything about it at all until its all resolved.

I reiterated by reply that i'd sent him the letter, that he should review and respond, and that i'd only be conversing by email from now on (no texts) until resolved.

He's then emailed me a (albeit broken) link to his online utility bills. Will it go against me that i'm ignoring his request now that i've started action? I've been fair with him, and set out my intentions, so i wouldnt like to think so, but might a judge suggest that i'm not doing my bit to resolve this and perhaps suggest mediation rather than a hearing?

Stop replying.

Ignore him.

You've written your letter, asked for the money, told him how to pay, and explained what you will do if he does not pay.

There is nothing more to say so stop saying things.....

thequant

G_M wrote: »

Stop replying.

Ignore him.

You've written your letter, asked for the money, told him how to pay, and explained what you will do if he does not pay.

There is nothing more to say so stop saying things.....

Hi G_M, I need to correct your advice re b), I presume rob is talking about the POC's (particulars of claim). This box is deliberately brief, as it is just meant to be a bullet point reproduction of the LBA, i.e. how much is being claimed, why and under what legal grounds.

As the LBA was way to long and this is a legal document, quoting the relevant law re the X3 deposit will be sufficient to cover all those respective points in the LBA.

Nitty gritty comes later, DO NOT disclose evidence in the POC's.

for part e)

You must make and allow all reasonable attempts to resolve the matter both before and during the court process. In fact it is a fundamental principle that the court process even when started must be used as a last resort. If you dont, you can find that costs maybe awarded against you even though you won.

I.e. you can't say, well I'm taking you to court so I'm not listening/arguing anymore.

On this front, do everything by letter. texts are not acceptable in court and the legal status of emails is dubious (some judges allow them, others don't). The main problem with emails is that proof of sending is not proof of receipt. So send correspondence by letter and ask for a receipt at the post office.

I have feeling he's probably not trying to resolve the dispute, it's the start of the "game playing" I mentioned, so go along with it, do it properly, dont give him ammo.

RobMolyneux

thequant wrote: »

Hi G_M, I need to correct your advice re b), I presume rob is talking about the POC's (particulars of claim). This box is deliberately brief, as it is just meant to be a bullet point reproduction of the LBA, i.e. how much is being claimed, why and under what legal grounds.

As the LBA was way to long and this is a legal document, quoting the relevant law re the X3 deposit will be sufficient to cover all those respective points in the LBA.

Nitty gritty comes later, DO NOT disclose evidence in the POC's.

for part e)

You must make and allow all reasonable attempts to resolve the matter both before and during the court process. In fact it is a fundamental principle that the court process even when started must be used as a last resort. If you dont, you can find that costs maybe awarded against you even though you won.

I.e. you can't say, well I'm taking you to court so I'm not listening/arguing anymore.

On this front, do everything by letter. texts are not acceptable in court and the legal status of emails is dubious (some judges allow them, others don't). The main problem with emails is that proof of sending is not proof of receipt. So send correspondence by letter and ask for a receipt at the post office.

I have feeling he's probably not trying to resolve the dispute, it's the start of the "game playing" I mentioned, so go along with it, do it properly, dont give him ammo.

Thanks Quant.

I now have proof of him residing elsewhere - in that he's sent me utility bills with his name and home address on them. So that's win #1.

He's also now credited my account with the £200 owed from my security deposit. Win #2.

re: emails, he has replied to emails, which is proof of receipt, so hopefully that also goes in my favour.

I understand the points raised about texts, and I've stopped replying to them.

As I was unwilling to give him my correspondence address, I invited him to correspond by email, so I have continued to reply to his emails.

If the use of them rather than letters goes against me, I'll be annoyed, but i guess i have to live with there being some risk there.

The positive thing for me, is that he has still not provided any response at all to the larger claim for the deposit protection, and as the other issue is resolved, I'll not be including that in my claim through the courts any more, and as such none of the emails i've sent will actually have any bearing anyway at this point in time.


also, similarly, re: the texts, I had planned to write them out (dates and times included, etc) as part of my overall evidence/case, for why he should have returned my deposit in full.

Now he has done so, and the claim is only going to be for the deposit protection, i no longer need these texts, as it is a simple claim of "you didnt do this, and I am a tenant not a lodger".

I cannot see how i lose, from here (though having watched making a murderer recently I'm not 100% certain ) and it should just be a matter of whether he offers me something i'm happy to take, and if not, how much of the 1-3x deposit value the judge would feel he wanted to award.

thequant

RobMolyneux wrote: »

Thanks Quant.

I now have proof of him residing elsewhere - in that he's sent me utility bills with his name and home address on them. So that's win #1.

He's also now credited my account with the £200 owed from my security deposit. Win #2.

re: emails, he has replied to emails, which is proof of receipt, so hopefully that also goes in my favour.

I understand the points raised about texts, and I've stopped replying to them.

As I was unwilling to give him my correspondence address, I invited him to correspond by email, so I have continued to reply to his emails.

If the use of them rather than letters goes against me, I'll be annoyed, but i guess i have to live with there being some risk there.

The positive thing for me, is that he has still not provided any response at all to the larger claim for the deposit protection, and as the other issue is resolved, I'll not be including that in my claim through the courts any more, and as such none of the emails i've sent will actually have any bearing anyway at this point in time.


also, similarly, re: the texts, I had planned to write them out (dates and times included, etc) as part of my overall evidence/case, for why he should have returned my deposit in full.

Now he has done so, and the claim is only going to be for the deposit protection, i no longer need these texts, as it is a simple claim of "you didnt do this, and I am a tenant not a lodger".

I cannot see how i lose, from here (though having watched making a murderer recently I'm not 100% certain ) and it should just be a matter of whether he offers me something i'm happy to take, and if not, how much of the 1-3x deposit value the judge would feel he wanted to award.

Great stuff, well done!

Now you are down to X3 deposit claim, I must admit I wont be of that much use as I'm not familiar with such claims and also laws around property and such things can be a minefield as they dont always work in the same way as a straight forward money claim.

But anyway all the best and I'll keep an eye on the thread, as I'm more than happy to advise re. court processes and procedures.

RobMolyneux

well, the 14 days is now up, and I've heard nothing at all in relation to the deposit protection issue. He's paid me the £200 owed from my deposit, but nothing else, so i'm moving on to court action.

I've been onto the MCOL site, and you have just over 1000 words or 21 lines, to explain the claim.

I'm going with the following (which based on their line formatting is 20 lines used).

any thoughts?

I am the former assured shorthold tenant of
XXXXXXX, which you
rented one room within an HMO from
12/01/15 until 12/12/15.

You failed to protect my deposit of £475,
paid on 9/1/15, with a Government-backed
scheme, as required by Section 213 of the
Housing Act 2004.

In line with Section 214 of the Housing Act
2004, I am claiming for up to 3 times the
amount of the deposit paid.

A letter before action, providing you with 14
days to make a suitable offer or provide a
substantial response, was issued on 15/1/16.

No such offer or response was received.

Guest101

RobMolyneux wrote: »

well, the 14 days is now up, and I've heard nothing at all in relation to the deposit protection issue. He's paid me the £200 owed from my deposit, but nothing else, so i'm moving on to court action.

I've been onto the MCOL site, and you have just over 1000 words or 21 lines, to explain the claim.

I'm going with the following (which based on their line formatting is 20 lines used).

any thoughts?

You cannot use MCOL to claim the penalty of failure to protect the deposit (I forget which form it is, but speak to your local county court)

RobMolyneux

Guest101 wrote: »

You cannot use MCOL to claim the penalty of failure to protect the deposit (I forget which form it is, but speak to your local county court)

thanks for that.

Is that for definite?

RobMolyneux

found the forms i need in this post - in case anyone else is looking at this thread in the future and wants to know...

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=67759912&postcount=3