Image too dark = invalid PCN?

Exposing_PFI

Its a privately issued one, not local authority. However either way, am I correct to assert that if the images taken at night time by the CEO (warden in old money), when viewed online are far too dark to decipher contect, i.e. too dark to be able to see such detail as road/bay markings etc, then that in itself would (automatically) invalidate the PCN / Parking Charge?
Therefore an appeal would/should prove successful (for the appellent)?
I've seen conflicting advice on this point. HELP!?

Redx

if its a warden picture than the signage would have to be well lit as per any CoP they are using (but you didnt mention the PPC and so we cannot decide if its the BPA or IPC CoP)

if its anpr, then it will be dark anyway, in order to show the VRN

the spaces dont have to be well lit, but if they arent then its a good appeal point if they said you were not inside the bay

without knowing which PPC and which ATA they are its difficult to answer in a better manner, plus the new popla arent giving out decisions at the moment, so no points of reference (if the PPC use popla)

I suggest you read the newbies sticky thread and then see if you need further help or not

salmosalaris

No it won't automatically invalidate it
Has the ticket been appealed yet ?

Exposing_PFI

Thanks Redx. The PPC (had to think about that) is UKPC, one of the largest I believe. It is the BPA that they're operating under/affilliated to.

Seems to be a few changes since I spent part of my old job advising on PCN issuance and reps procedure (ironic huh). Cheers, will do.

Exposing_PFI

Alas no! Like a fool I went away but left the damn PCN at home. Interesting to have your take on it though, ta.

Redx

acronyms are explained in the NEWBIES sticky thread, so no thinking required

read parking pranksters blogs about these UKPC photographs and their validity (or not)

pcn,s are just invoices, so nothing really "invalidates" them, they arent like council tickets

appeals are won on the legalities and arguing of those legalities, plus with UKPC we can assume all photos are faked or altered or not valid for some reason, possibly fraud

Exposing_PFI

Again, thanks. Yep the Newbies section has been pretty well researched.

Redx

Exposing_PFI wrote: »

Again, thanks. Yep the Newbies section has been pretty well researched.

in that case time to catch up with pranksters blogs over the last 4 months regarding UKPC sc@ms, plus tomorrow nights BBC1 program on this saga too

start with this thread from page 1 here

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5390608

pogofish

Pictures mean next to nothing in the realm of private parking.

Concentrate on the challenges outlined in the Newbies Sticky instead.

Exposing_PFI

Victory! Parking bosses will refund ALL tickets handed out by dodgy wardens who scammed motorists by changing the times on photos to fine legally parked cars

• Dozens of drivers have been wrongly fined at car parks run by UKPC
• Neil Horton was given ticket after 15 minutes, despite being allowed 90
• He claims photos were altered to suggest he was at the site for two hours
• Police fraud squad and parking trade body have launched probe into UKPC
• UKPC said the 'staff implicated are no longer working' for the company
• Firm now promised to refund all tickets given by staff under investigation
  
  A private parking firm whose staff were caught doctoring photo times to issue overstay tickets has finally apologised and offered full refunds to customers after being exposed by MailOnline.
  
  Dozens of drivers contacted MailOnline after being stung with fines in car parks run by UK Parking Control - which is responsible for supermarkets, retail centres and even NHS car parks around the country - despite having left the site well within the allotted time.
  When they have approached the firm for photographic evidence, the drivers have been sent images that show their vehicle in the car park at a time it was not there.
  UKPC - which is now at the centre of a probe by the City of London's fraud squad - has now admitted that members of staff - who have since left the firm - exploited a 'loophole' in the firm's photograph system.
  The company has now offered full refunds to all customers who were given tickets by staff members now under investigation, even those that it believes may be legitimate.
  [FONT=&quot]Finally breaking its silence on the matter, the company said that the customers affected won't have to apply for refunds - the money will automatically appear in their accounts in the next few days.[/FONT]

But the Uxbridge-based firm refused to confirm how many staff had been dismissed and how widespread the problem was, insisting matters were 'still under investigation'.
A spokesman said: 'We regret to confirm that a limited number of pictures of vehicles, at a small number of car parks, have had their timestamp altered by a few of our employees to make it appear as though the vehicles had over-stayed when this was not the case.
[FONT=&quot]'We have taken this issue extremely seriously and decided that even though a number of the relevant parking charges are likely to have been legitimately issued, we will refund all potentially affected parking charges for over-stays issued by these employees, to ensure that there is no room for error.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Simone Riley-Young was given a ticket in the same car park. Photographs said she had arrived at the car park 55 minutes before she did (left). The second picture suggested she was parked for more than two hours (right) and again the car is casting a similar shadow despite the supposed passage of time
'The repayments will be refunded automatically to drivers’ bank accounts over the next few days. Disciplinary action is in progress in relation to the relevant employees and therefore our solicitors inform us that we are unable to comment further in that regard.'
Meanwhile, the British Parking Association - which vowed to issue a 'scheme of sanctions' if the 'tampering' allegations are proved - urged motorists to launch appeals against their parking tickets.
[FONT=&quot]It means thousands of fines issued by the firm - which has 1,400 sites and 200 employees nationwide - could be in dispute across the country.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] One of the drivers affected was Neil Horton, who claims he was given a ticket after parking his car in a UKPC site for just 15 minutes - despite the car park providing 90 minutes for free.
When he received photographic evidence over the fine, the pictures suggested he had left his vehicle at the site in Newcastle-under-Lyme for almost two hours.
[FONT=&quot]But Mr Horton is convinced the images were in fact taken at the same time - because they both feature the same car in the background with its boot open.[/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT]

The furious motorist has now enlisted the help of Alex Shipp, who campaigns as the Parking Prankster to investigate the incident. The 61-year-old said: 'I went to Lidl supermarket to buy three items and was in the shop for no more than quarter of an hour. When I returned to my car I was astonished to see that I had received a fine.
'I immediately went back into the supermarket and the manager and myself came out to look for the parking attendant who had completely vanished. It is absolutely scandalous.'
Mr Horton has appealed to Parking on Private Land Appeals (POPLA) but it was rejected on the grounds that the site only allows a 90-minute stay.
He has now responded with a further appeal urging the operator to take a closer look at the photographs. He has yet to receive a response.
[FONT=&quot]Mr Horton said: 'They are not going to get a penny out of me.'[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Another motorist who claims she was affected was Simone Riley-Young, who was given a ticket after parking her car in a UKPC-managed car park Tritton Retail Park, Lincoln.
[FONT=&quot]Ms Riley-Young parked for one hour and 40 minutes because the car park offered two hours' free parking.
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] But when she returned to her car, she was handed a fine that claimed her car had been parked there for two hours and 20 minutes. She says there was even a time stamp showing it was there 55 minutes earlier than she had arrived. The parking ticket issued to Ms Riley-Young, who is from Sheffield
'I was meeting a friend in the car park and she arrived there about ten minutes before me so she knows what time I actually arrived,' Ms Riley-Young said.
'When we returned to our cars, under the two hours' free time, I found that I had a fine and I just laughed. I genuinely thought it was human error as there was no way I was at the car park at 7:15am - I was still in bed.
'When I was appealing against the fine, I had no worries because I knew that I was in the right, so I was really shocked when UKPC rejected my appeal.'
[FONT=&quot]The driver has also taken her appeal to POPLA, which provided photographic evidence apparently showing her vehicle on site almost an hour earlier than she says it was.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] 'The two photos must have been taken at the same time because the shadows in both images have not moved,' she said.
'I'm not going to back down. Having spoken to Alex Shipp I think I've got the backing of other people to highlight this as fraud.'
Jade Beeby says she was also targeted in the same car park in in May.
The former Lincoln University student arrived at the car park at 12:40pm to give herself time to get to her exam at the university at 1pm. Her exam finished at 3pm and she said she returned to her car about 20 minutes later.
But, despite there being a three hour grace period, she was fined.
[FONT=&quot]She said: 'When I received photographic evidence from UKPC, it said I had parked my car at 9:35am but that isn't true - I was having a birthday breakfast in Nottingham until 10am. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]I battled with everybody to try to get the fine dropped but in the end I paid the £100 because it just got too much.[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]'I know that I was in the right but no one would believe me and it was just not worth all the hassle.'

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] 'THE PUSH FOR TICKETS WAS UNREAL': FORMER UKPC EMPLOYEE SPEAKS OUT ABOUT 'COMMON PRACTICE' OF CHANGED TIMES ON CAMERA PHONES

An ex-employee of UKPC has revealed how parking attendants ‘bend the rules’ for bonuses and that changing times on camera phones is 'common practice'.
The former attendant claimed the push for parking tickets was 'unreal' and that bosses used to demand 'more, more, more.'
It came after two motorists claimed they were given fines at the UKPC-run Tritton Road retail car park, Lincoln, when pictures of their cars were allegedly doctored.
The worker, who used to cover that car park, told [FONT=&quot]The Lincolnite[/FONT]: 'CCTV used to be checked first thing in the morning by the car park attendant.
'Let’s say a car entered car park at 9:45 and it was seen on CCTV at 12:00 that time, the warden would change time on camera phone to 9:45 go out and take a picture, then change time again to 12:00, then take a final picture – this was common practice.'
[FONT=&quot]He added: 'When they take you on, you are on a KPI scheme. For 20-30 tickets it’s £2 a ticket, 30-40 £3 and so on, however in real world terms, in this car park (Tritton Road) that’s big ticket numbers. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]'The push for tickets on this site was unreal, I used to get calls, texts and emails at all hours of the day and night, constantly demanding more, more, more.'

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] Driver Shell Neil said she had experienced the same issue at a site in Canterbury.
[FONT=&quot]The 25-year-old said she had parked in a UKPC car park for about an hour while she went to the gym and had then left to drive her mother to a physiotherapy appointment in London.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]But she was later sent a fine, with images which showed her car apparently parked on the site during her mother's appointment. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] She initially wanted to fight the fine, and contacted the firm to complain, but became increasingly 'frightened' about being hauled before the courts when she did not hear anything back. She told MailOnline: 'I was allowed to park for free for up to three hours and was parked for less than an hour. But when I got my ticket through, it said I had been there in the afternoon - while I was in London.
'I Googled so many options about what to do but they were almost impossible to get hold of. I wrote an email and appealed the fine, but I heard nothing back. I then worried that the fine would be doubled, or I would be taken to court, so I just paid the £100.
'They know that it frightens you and that most people won't put up the fight.'
Simon Hall was caught out when he parked in a UKPC car park near to the Job Centre and McDonald's in Liverpool. [FONT=&quot]As a customer of those two services, he was allowed to park for up to 90 minutes for free.[/FONT]

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]But he later received a fine from the company, saying he had parked wrongly because he had not used the two services. Mr Hall had both used the Job Centre and bought himself a Big Mac.
'I think they do it as a way of forcing to pay, because they know they will be too afraid to fight it,' he said.
Mr Shipp said he deals with up to twenty emails per day relating to parking ticket inaccuracies through his blog.
He claims to have spoken to a former UKPC employee who told him that wardens receive bonuses if they exceed their ticket targets.
'This is a deliberate manipulation of cameras. It's fraud. This needs to be investigated to see how far this practice has spread,' he said.
[FONT=&quot]Mr Shipp contacted the BPA to ask them to investigate. In a statement, the BPA explained that it could not comment on individual cases but confirmed they are currently investigating UKPC.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] The statement said: 'The BPA does not tolerate evidence tampering. Parking management must be fair, reasonable and robust and POPLA exists so that motorists can seek redress for unfair parking practices.
'If POPLA concludes that breaches of the BPA's Code of Practice have occurred, the BPA will investigate and use a scheme of sanctions 'By applying sanction points we have seen operators change their practices for the better. Multiple or continued breaches can and do lead to expulsion.'
When contacted, POPLA said that it could not comment on individual cases.
The City of London's National Fraud Intelligence Bureau has now launched a probe, Action Fraud confirmed.
[FONT=&quot]UKPC, which is hired by private landowners to manage parking, was set up in 2004 in Uxbridge and is run by managing director[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rupert J Williams. Accounts show the company has an £8.5m turnover.
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] In a statement, the firm said: 'This is obviously completely contrary to UKPC’s operating procedure and the staff implicated and then investigated are no longer working for UKPC,' they said.
'The company’s software has been reviewed and updated to close the loophole.'
In 2011, the company was taken to court by East Riding of Yorkshire Council in a case which cost the body £41,000. It was found guilty of one count of misleading customers, but acquitted of a further seven counts.
The court case followed complaints from East Riding residents who were issued with fines for either parking over the bay lines or for parking in Tesco for more than the permitted two hours.
[FONT=&quot]That decision was later overturned on appeal.
[/FONT] [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Have you ever worked for UKPC? E-mail [FONT=&quot](link remove[FONT=&quot]d) [/FONT][/FONT]or phone 02036151786[/FONT] By Steph Crocroft.

Redx

that is old news from the original investigation 3 months ago

tomorrow nights tv programme appears to be about further issues with UKPC