rejection Letter from VCS

McOfson

Hello
I've read through the posts , and am now beyond confused, so many apologies if this a frustrating post!
I received a postal PCN through the post (with a pic of my car entering and leaving the car park of DFS) stating that I'd overstayed the 2 hours. It was a sunday evening nothing was open , and the driver was waiting in the car park for a train . the train was delayed so the driver was stuck there waiting.
So I read your newbies thread and sent of the template letter as instructed.
They now have replied saying that I either pay up now or appeal as , as soon as the driver drove on to the land they had ' freely entered in to an agreement'. And VCS say they wont enter into any further appeals.

Ive read everything about appealing to the IAS but there's no definitive answer either way and no template letters for appealing like before, so I'm confused whether to or not or what to say if I do.

Many apologies if the info is already on the forum.. I just haven't found it.
best wishes

Quentin

As you will see there is disagreement on whether or not to appeal to IAS.


It's your decision.


Whatever you decide to do over appealing, you can ignore everything you get over the next 6 years except court action letters from the PPC or the court.

McOfson

Any template letters available??, as I'm rubbish at these things and will invariably get the wording wrong and set my self up for a hanging! hehe. Any template help would be really appreciated :-)
Best wishes
G

Fruitcake

There are no templates for second stage appeals to either PoPLA or IAS, they are always bespoke.


If you don't feel confident making an IAS appeal then perhaps the best suggestion is to ignore without appealing, ignore the likely debt collector letters, and keep on ignoring until 6 years have passed.


Keep everything you get during that period and come back here if you get real court papers. This however is very unlikely.

pappa_golf

rejection Letter from VCS


I have received worse over the years , but got over them

Quentin

McOfson wrote: »

Any template letters available??, as I'm rubbish at these things and will invariably get the wording wrong and set my self up for a hanging! hehe. Any template help would be really appreciated :-)
Best wishes
G

You need to do your own - post it up for comments if you like, though you know the outcome before you send it.


There is a third alternative which is to ask for different arbitration to be used (again, you know the outcome!)


See the newbies thread (#1) for a template letter for this.

Redx

also bear in mind that with the story you gave in post #1 it certainly agrees with their parking charge and submissions, of parking on private land without permission from the landowner and in defiance of the signage by which the driver is deemed to have formed a contract (effectively its trespassing)

so any appeal or any court case will need bespoke legal arguments for your defence instead, such as

no keeper liability established under POFA2012
no locus standii
no landowner permissions (contract) to make charges
no landowners permission to issue court proceedings against "offenders"
poor signage
using the CRA2015 to show its an unenforcible contract
using the CRA2015 to indicate its not a fair loss (no loss to the PPC or landowner)

you certainly cannot defend the actions of the driver with the information given in post #1, its definitely not a defence in law just as it wouldnt be if the driver had parked on my empty drive if I lived near the station (especially if I had signage up indicating certain rules)

I suggest that in future you , the driver and others dont park where its not allowed or where you have no actual or implied permission, instead by using public roads wherever possible and parking according to the rules and regulations you avoid these situations

if you dont , you will see many more of these invoices on the vehicle or in the post , originating from hospitals, surgeries , retail parks , airports , stations , supermarkets , ports and other private land supervised by Private Parking scumpanies

there are no templates for appeals on this forum nor any others, but there are previous examples of appeals , 99% of which will be popla appeals, very few are previous IAS appeals and mainly concern airports (not relevant land under POFA2012)

any appeal or court defence will be bespoke , tailored to the situation, so no template can cover these aspects, which are complex and require writing up on a case by case basis

you will find the ADR blog by parking prankster on his blog site too, dated 30 oct 2015

salmosalaris

I would send the letter in the Newbies thread designed for IPC members .
I would make two minor changes .
I personally wouldn't invite them to issue a letter before claim , you are asking very reasonable questions to assess your position and the validity of their claim . That can come later .
In addition I would end the letter that as an alternative they can cancel their demand .

McOfson

Thanks Salmosalaris.
So shall I send the letter below then?
Thanks for your help guys so far.

Dear VCS
Re PCN number:

I am not ignoring your charge for a purported parking infraction. As this is purely a charge (not a statutory penalty) issued under a purported contract and the driver has not been identified, I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

1. Who is the party that contracted with your company for the provision of their services? I require their contact details.
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that you have their authority to both issue parking charges and litigate in your own name.
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract please provide your justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? Answer yes or no.
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.
8. Please provide a copy of the signs that purportedly were on site which you contend formed a contract with the driver on that occasion.

In my opinion, there is a better alternative than legal proceedings, namely that we utilise the services of a completely independent ADR service suited to parking charges. This does not include the IAS appeal service - which lacks any transparency and possibly any independence from the IPC - unlike the alternative offered by the British Parking Association, POPLA, which is transparent and has been shown to be independent.

Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs or surcharges. I will not respond to those, so to involve another firm would be a failure to mitigate your alleged loss. In any case, the addition of any debt collector 'costs' is not my liability because the POFA 2012 can only potentially hold a registered keeper liable if certain provisions have been met and even then, the 'amount of the parking charge' is the only amount pursuable.
As an alternative you can cancel your demand.

Yours faithfully,

Coupon-mad

McOfson wrote: »

Any template letters available??, as I'm rubbish at these things and will invariably get the wording wrong and set my self up for a hanging! hehe. Any template help would be really appreciated :-)
Best wishes
G

No, not for IAS stage, because you will lose.

Salmosalaris kindly came up with a suggested response as a one-off which you've been given (to send to the PPC, not to engage with the IAS at all) but you need to understand this WILL NOT stop the letter chain of begging letters later. They will not cancel the PCN, the point of the response appeal to the PPC is just to appear reasonable if they did ever pursue it to court.

Getting debt collector letters is not 'pursuing it to court' by the way. When you get them, please read post #4 of the NEWBIES thread as you appear to have missed the entire point of that sticky thread, which is to stop threads like this (sorry, nothing personal but not needed on a one-to-one case and if everyone did this we'd never keep up).

Please, pretty please, when you get the inevitable second rejection letter or other reply, please don't ask for the 'next step'. It's in the newbies thread. There is no next step worth trying after you state that you will not engage with the IAS.

And please nothing about debt collector letters. Post #4 of the newbies thread already covers that, as do thousands of threads over the years.

Just to say - I'm not being unhelpful, quite the opposite. The info is here already for you.

salmosalaris

If you can say you were not the driver ( don't tell us here )
You could add

I am the registered keeper of vehicle xxxx . As you have failed to adhere to the strict requirements of schedule 4 of POFA I cannot be held liable , take the matter up with the driver as I was not .
If you still wish to pursue me despite this ..... ( Then move onto the rest of letter )