Osbourne's tax relief changes in the March budget

gadgetmind

saver861 wrote: »

If I was having brain surgery, I'd like to think the surgeon's primary motivation did not centre solely on money and his tax rate!!

I'd like to think the surgeon was still working rather than having retired (or emigrated) because between the tax squeeze and the pension squeeze, they decided it just wasn't worth it.

I know a fair few surgeons (including a vascular neurosurgeon!) and many of them have either retired or have set a date. Yes, this does make room for younger talent, but I'd quite like someone with as much experience, knowledge and skill as possible when the drills start breaking through my skull.

There comes a point when it's as much about the principle as the money, and if people feel they are being vilified and punished for their hard work and success, then bats and balls will be taken home.

saver861

gadgetmind wrote: »

I'd like to think the surgeon was still working rather than having retired (or emigrated) because between the tax squeeze and the pension squeeze, they decided it just wasn't worth it.

But you miss my point. Those surgeons for whom money is not the primary motivation will still be drilling holes in brains. Those motivated by money are likely to have retired or moved on, drilling holes in brains elsewhere just because they are getting paid more for it .... good riddance therefore in those cases, though pity on those whose brain it is!

gadgetmind wrote: »

There comes a point when it's as much about the principle as the money,

Money is a servant and not a master.

If the principles are purely down to money issues then that becomes the distraction. I understand the politics of it, I'm saying that those driven by money have less moral authenticity than others less so driven by money.

In my time I have had opportunities to move to different positions for higher salaries and rewards. Often I did not because the higher salary was not nearly enough incentive to change what I was doing.

A time ago, I was offered a job with a good salary, instead, I went to University to do further study for a number of years, on a (now obsolete) student grant!

gadgetmind wrote: »

and if people feel they are being vilified and punished for their hard work and success, then bats and balls will be taken home.

Primarily only by those who have money as their master and not as their servant ....

gadgetmind

saver861 wrote: »

But you miss my point. Those surgeons for whom money is not the primary motivation will still be drilling holes in brains.

Even if money isn't the primary motivator, I'm sure it's a close second for many people.

good riddance therefore in those cases, though pity on those whose brain it is!

Warning: This bathwater may contain babies!

Primarily only by those who have money as their master and not as their servant ....

The surgeons I know do like what they do. The vascular surgeon was 3 hours later for a dinner party as a teenager came in totally unresponsive with a massive brain bleed and was starting to get back to normal when he left. All of this time was unpaid.

Even he was starting to talk about quitting due to the way that DB pensions were being taxed as allowance fell, but he's now decided to stay on. However, we can't rely on messy divorces to keep all of our senior surgeons at the grindstone!

saver861

gadgetmind wrote: »

Even if money isn't the primary motivator, I'm sure it's a close second for many people.

Money is an necessity for everyone. However, money has a different value for many. Those who have it as their primary motivation or as a higher significance than appropriate - they will never be satisfied.

If the goal is £50k when it is reached, that starts to look insufficient. Thus the goal becomes £75k ... which then looks insufficient and it is £100k ... and so on .... till one day, they snuff it and money is no longer an asset.

gadgetmind wrote: »

The surgeons I know do like what they do. The vascular surgeon was 3 hours later for a dinner party as a teenager came in totally unresponsive with a massive brain bleed and was starting to get back to normal when he left. All of this time was unpaid.

But it is paid time - in is in the salary. Surgeons don't clock in and out on an hourly rate!! Such situations are the consequence of the job.

Would you really want a surgeon operating on your loved ones who would put a dinner party before patient welfare? Or course not ..... neither would you want a surgeon who is only in the job while the tax bands or bonuses are in their favour.

gadgetmind wrote: »

Even he was starting to talk about quitting due to the way that DB pensions were being taxed as allowance fell, but he's now decided to stay on. However, we can't rely on messy divorces to keep all of our senior surgeons at the grindstone!

Obviously there will be a point where everyone has to make a decision to retire, semi-retire, change course etc. It may well be as retirement nears, the cumulation of factors for and against make a decision - that would be natural. Less natural would be a decision to stay or go solely on the basis of the tax code.

Equally, not everyone on higher rate and top rate salaries are best fit for the job. The salary scale is not necessarily representative of their ability.

gadgetmind

saver861 wrote: »

But it is paid time - in is in the salneither would you want a surgeon who is only in the job while the tax bands or bonuses are in their favour.

People will only take so much no matter how much they love the job and like helping people. I'm telling you what real surgeons are saying and doing right now, so omphaloskepsis and peering at the pointy end of Maslow's triangle will only get us so far.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11556081/New-pension-rules-will-push-doctors-and-dentists-to-retire-early.html

AlanP_2

gadgetmind wrote: »

Yes, and it's this other side of the equation that people forget, and how mobile our workforce is nowadays.

And as for "end of it", sorry, but we all have the right to observe that taxation in the UK is unsustainably high and most likely at the "higher taxes = lower take" part of the Laffer Curve.

For instance, I expect that the lowering of CGT rates in the budget will cause a massive rise in the amount of CGT that HMRC collects over coming years.

Tax rates may be too high and appreciate the point about the Laffer Curve but that was not really my point.

As an individual if you don't like paying HR tax you have lots of (legal) options to NOT pay it.

The fact that you will then have less money coming into your bank account as a result should make you happy as you would be paying less tax.

I think from what you said earlier you have cut your hours because the sums didn't add up for you. That is my point, you made a conscious choice.

gadgetmind

AlanP wrote: »

As an individual if you don't like paying HR tax you have lots of (legal) options to NOT pay it.

Yes, but is that the best thing for the country and its coffers? I suspect not, so why are we making tax and pension rules that are a net negative?

The fact that you will then have less money coming into your bank account as a result should make you happy as you would be paying less tax.

Happy, I'm delirious! I sit and giggle whenever I look at my spreadsheets.

saver861

gadgetmind wrote: »

People will only take so much no matter how much they love the job and like helping people. I'm telling you what real surgeons are saying and doing right now, so omphaloskepsis and peering at the pointy end of Maslow's triangle will only get us so far.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11556081/New-pension-rules-will-push-doctors-and-dentists-to-retire-early.html

You are telling me what some acquaintances of yours have told you. They are no doubt 'real surgeons' but I'm not clear how many surgeons you know and what percentage that is of the overall numbers.

I'm telling you what my opinion is in general and what my preferences would be for particular surgeons operating on my loved ones. I recall such a situation when a family member had a scan revealing a possible need for such surgery. The local surgeon referred us to the specialist surgeon in that medical area.

When we revealed we were in BUPA and could have this work done privately, the local surgeon promptly got on his mobile and left the room to ring the specialist surgeon.

The specialist surgeon in turn rang us twice that evening, first time leaving a message on voicemail. He discussed possibilities etc. As it turned out surgery was not necessary. However, the main troubling point about that situation was the motivation of these surgeons. Had the situation been purely NHS we would not have received phone calls from the top specialist surgeon in the evening.

Your article for the telegraph is typical - do you think a similar article would appear if the situation was the opposite - e.g. good news of sorts.

My main point is that you put too much emphasis on higher earners fleeing the country due to tax issues. Some will no doubt, but many wont. Equally, there are certain professions where, if that is the motivation, then they are best gone in any case.

Your premise relates everything back to money - but not everything is as so. Sure Maslow and McGregor will only get us so far. However, their theories are still in place.

Perhaps too many higher and top rate earners have a misplaced sense of self-importance!

Triumph13

I think you're missing a vital piece of the jigsaw if you think that objecting to high marginal tax rates (and taking your toys home as a result) is just about wanting more money. In many cases it is much more about perceived 'fairness'. If you think you are being taxed unfairly that can have a very material impact on your happiness - no matter how much you care about the job.

gadgetmind

saver861 wrote: »

I'm not clear how many surgeons you know and what percentage that is of the overall numbers.

About half a dozen socially and a few more that I chat to at other times. In percentage terms, yes well in anecdote, but backed up by lost of news articles.

However, the main troubling point about that situation was the motivation of these surgeons. Had the situation been purely NHS we would not have received phone calls from the top specialist surgeon in the evening.

You get what you pay for and not what you wish for. Harsh but true.

My main point is that you put too much emphasis on higher earners fleeing the country due to tax issues. Some will no doubt, but many wont.

But neither will beating them over the head with high taxes and complex pension rules changes either raise any more money or make them feel better about what they are doing.

If there are no benefits then simply don't do it.