HELP!!! applied for UTR in early December

cypher007

ok I know bit late, but this is my first tax return on our BTL.


I applied for this UTR code thing, which ive now found out can take weeks. I thought I would just pop online register job done, but no it seems the gov wants to make this as complicated as possible.


anyway our 2014-2015 year actually made a loss, as we had a lot of startup costs no tenant for a couple of months. so im wondering if when I do finally get the code and file the return, if its over the 31 Jan will I incure the wrath of the TAX man?


should I be phoning them to chase sooner rather than later.

booksurr

submit it one second past midnight ie 00:00:01 on 1 Feb 16 and you will get the automatic £100 penalty as that has nothing to do with owing tax, its all about submitting a return on time

the rest is explained in many places on the internet

here are 2 to start with
http://www.rossmartin.co.uk/penalties-a-compliance/114-penalties/721-tax-penalties-self-assessment-late-filing-a-payment-from-201011

https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/penalties

yes you should phone, but doubtless they will say that it takes 2 weeks normally so, not unreasonably with Xmas post, it will take longer to get to you

suso

booksurr wrote: »

submit it one second past midnight ie 00:00:01 on 1 Feb 16 and you will get the automatic £100 penalty as that has nothing to do with owing tax, its all about submitting a return on time

This is wrong.


If you have only just applied for your UTR in early December, you will not have been issued with a tax return. At the very minimum you will have 3 months and a few days to complete the return from when it is issued.

Penalties for late filing will start from then.

You should have notified the tax office of your need to complete a tax return by early October (6 months after the end of the tax year.) So there is a failure to notify and a potential penalty, this is only charged when there is tax outstanding. As you have stated there is a loss on the BTL so there shouldn't be any tax outstanding.


The payment deadline for any tax due is always January 31st, so even though you might have a later filing date, any tax owing from Feb 1st will be charged interest and if not paid in full by Feb 28th be subject to a late payment penalty (5% of the amount outstanding.) - However if there is a loss and nothing to pay, this shouldn't worry you.



cheers

Innys1

suso wrote: »

This is wrong.


If you have only just applied for your UTR in early December, you will not have been issued with a tax return. At the very minimum you will have 3 months and a few days to complete the return from when it is issued.

Penalties for late filing will start from then.

You should have notified the tax office of your need to complete a tax return by early October (6 months after the end of the tax year.) So there is a failure to notify and a potential penalty, this is only charged when there is tax outstanding. As you have stated there is a loss on the BTL so there shouldn't be any tax outstanding.


The payment deadline for any tax due is always January 31st, so even though you might have a later filing date, any tax owing from Feb 1st will be charged interest and if not paid in full by Feb 28th be subject to a late payment penalty (5% of the amount outstanding.) - However if there is a loss and nothing to pay, this shouldn't worry you.



cheers

On the contrary, this sounds wrong.

After all, if the above were to be correct and one never applied for a UTR, one would never be liable to a late filing fine. Now, does that sound right?

p00hsticks

suso wrote: »

So there is a failure to notify and a potential penalty, this is only charged when there is tax outstanding. As you have stated there is a loss on the BTL so there shouldn't be any tax outstanding.

although it used to be true that penalties for not lodging a return in time when required to do so were waived if there was no tax actually owing, I don't believe this has been the case for a number of years now.

The penalty relates to the late submission of the return - whether or not the return shows that tax is owing or not has no relevance and does not affect the applciaiton of the fine.

agrinnall

Innys1 wrote: »

On the contrary, this sounds wrong.

After all, if the above were to be correct and one never applied for a UTR, one would never be liable to a late filing fine. Now, does that sound right?

Agreed, that's precisely the argument I was going to make but I thought I'd wait for someone else to advance it first :beer:.

sheramber

Innys1 wrote: »

On the contrary, this sounds wrong.

After all, if the above were to be correct and one never applied for a UTR, one would never be liable to a late filing fine. Now, does that sound right?

It only applies to the first year. After that there is a self assessment record and a return will be issued automatically each year thereafter until self assessment is no longer appropriate.

MDMD

Innys1 wrote: »

On the contrary, this sounds wrong.

After all, if the above were to be correct and one never applied for a UTR, one would never be liable to a late filing fine. Now, does that sound right?

In addition to the failure to notify penalty, if a UTR was never applied for and HMRC discover the existence of a rental property (or any other source that should have been taxed) they can set a record up, open a determination and estimate the tax, sending the person a bill.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/salfmanual/salf209.htm

The only way to get rid of this (there is no right of appeal) is to file the return, thereby exposing the person to late filing penalties, FTN Penaties, surcharges and interest. Of course these depend on the liability, the number of returns and the time that has elapsed.

TheCyclingProgrammer

Innys1 wrote: »

On the contrary, this sounds wrong.

After all, if the above were to be correct and one never applied for a UTR, one would never be liable to a late filing fine. Now, does that sound right?

Because whilst you can't be filed for late submission if you've never been asked to submit a tax return (either because you notified HMRC you were chargeable to tax or they decided they want you to submit one) you can be fined for failing to notify HMRC that you owe them tax which, as stated above, needs to be done within 9 months of the end of the relevant tax year.

The main difference is the £100 late filing penalty is automatic, the failure to notify penalty is nil if no tax is owed.

This doesn't mean you can get away with not notifying if you do owe tax or have regular self-employment/rental income (even if you're making a loss) because as the above poster points out, HMRC could discover this themselves and issue a notice anyway.

TheCyclingProgrammer

p00hsticks wrote: »

although it used to be true that penalties for not lodging a return in time when required to do so were waived if there was no tax actually owing, I don't believe this has been the case for a number of years now.

The penalty relates to the late submission of the return - whether or not the return shows that tax is owing or not has no relevance and does not affect the applciaiton of the fine.

No, the £100 penalty for filing late only applies if you've received a notification to file a tax return in the first place. The £100 fine applies regardless of tax owed as you say but this is NOT the same as failing to notify.

Whenever you become chargeable to tax you must notify HMRC within 9 months of the end of the relevant tax year. In return, HMRC will send you a notice to file a tax return (usually, they may be able to deduct the tax using your tax code).

The failure to notify penalty is still based on the tax owed and if nothing is owed there is no penalty for failing to notify.

Based on what OP has said, I'm assuming they have not yet been sent a notice to file a tax return and are only now notifying HMRC that they need to file a return by applying for a UTR. If this is the case, then even though this should have been done several months ago, if there is no tax owed (due to making a loss) there should be no penalty.

Once they receive their UTR and a notice to file a return they should have an extended amount of time to file their return. Once they are in the system they will receive a notice to file automatically each year and from that point on they will have until the end of January like anyone else and risk the £100 penalty if they are late.

patanne

So have you worked out exactly the figures you are going to file? You have 30 days and over 9 hours to figure that out. The chances of your UTR taking longer than that are remote so!! Take a breath, and get yourself prepared. If you ARE prepared then even if it doesn't arrive until the 31st you can still do it. So HAVE you worked out what you are going to file or are you to busy being in panic mode? If you are in that much of a panic mode see an accountant on Monday and get him to tell you what to file. Print out the paper filing forms and see what you are going to have to file on line - it isn't much different.

I file online for a friend because he is always too late to file on paper, which I do for myself (and used to do for my mother too). There isn't much difference, except when you do it online you need to be more careful which boxes you do and do not tick.

So to re-iterate get out of panic mode it isn't productive - your UTR code will arrive before the end of January, just make sure you are ready for it!