APCOA Birmingham Airport PCN at Ibis Hotel Layby

Travel4life

Hey guys

Fantastic forum, great to read success stories against thieving mofos.

I need some advice on my PCN. I've spent a good couple of hours on the forum and have found similar/identical stories but APCOA have upped their game a little and I haven't found something which answers all my questions.

If I'm honest, I was just about to pay the fine off and carry on with my life, and avoid getting my mum into trouble or have her dealing with headaches. Until I came across loads of fighters on here. I've also had a couple of nasty hits in the past of £440 (£90 fine, £150 clamp, £200 towing all within a 3 minute time period) in one go by "separate" companies, and I don't want to fall victim once again to these money thieving such and suchs.

So my mum dropped me off in her car at the Ibis layby of Birmingham Airport so I can catch my flight. In hindsight, I shouldve just paid the £1 to get dropped off and avoid the time and effort now, but for that you can get a large Dairy Milk Whole Nut. The car stopped for around 25-30 seconds by my estimation. We have always done this drop off but this is the first time a PCN has come through for it.

The PCN is for the alleged contravention of Dropping off / picking up outside of a designated parking area. There are 3 photos on it, 2 of which I'm on with my suitcase, about to start my walk to departures. The photo are all taken within a time period of 6 seconds. The creditor has been named in the letterhead as APCOA. The driver hasn't been identified as they've request to pass this on to the driver it it isn't my mum.

I've checked on google streetview and there is a sign just in front of the layby which we didn't even notice or look at at the time as we've used this layby so many times in the past. Theres 2 signs on the same pole, one saying "No stopping at any time to drop off or pick up - CCTV and number plate recognised in operation" and another directly below saying "Hotel Drop Off Only"

I've checked the NEWBIES thread and that template makes 2 statements:
"I believe that the signs were not seen/are ambiguous and the terms unclear to drivers before they park."

"There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge."

Now I'm a bit of a negative person and always use "what if" or "but" when thinking about how APCOA might come back. So...Does the first point stand valid? There is a sign there for people to see?

The second point I'm familiar with BUT is this saying that I don't know who the driver is or we do know but I'm not gonna tell you? Are we allowed to do this?

Also:
Date of offence is 16/11/2015
Date of issue of Notice: 25/11/2015
Date letter was received through post: 01/12/2015

Is that 15 days? or 14? or 16? Not sure how to count it? Can I use this to my advantage (probably in my 2nd letter to POPLA?

Shall I simple proceed with the newbie template letter to APCOA?

Any good advice will be appreciated. I'm far from a lawyer, and just an honest straight forward person, so please keep it in lay(by) :T terms.

You guys and girls are doing a great job!

Redx

the pcn is going to the KEEPER and they dont have to admit who was driving

if its airport land, POFA 2012 DOES NOT APPLY so without them knowing who the driver is they cannot hold the KEEPER liable, hence the "WE ARE NOT TELLING YOU NOR HELPING YOU WITH ANY ADMISSIONS"

THINK OF IT AS A NO COMMENT INTERVIEW

as its a pcn in the post (an NTK to the keeper, they had 14 days to deliver it if using POFA 2012)

in theory they have 6 years to send it to the driver (if known) as POFA WOULD NOT APPLY,but if its AIRPORT LAND it doesnt apply anyway

this should be appealed by the person who received the PCN in the post, using the template letter in BLUE, the idea is "cancel or send me a popla code"

if they dont cancel and issue a popla code, a popla appeal based on those other recent threads is used , about POFA non-compliance , not relevant land , signage , not a parking event , no landowner contract , grace periods and all the other legal points etc

doesnt matter what they come back with, because all that matters is if popla deem the invoice as being legally enforceable , or not

this is a tried and tested formula, just go with it

Travel4life

Thank you for your succinct response. I have sent the template having removed the bracketed stuff of course.

I shall keep you posted when I get a response.

The_Deep

have you seen this?


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5364943

Travel4life

Hey guys,

Just a quick update and seeking further advice as I've got something back from APCOA.

My appeal was sent through email and has of course been rejected by APCOA through post and they've given me a POPLA code. They've stated that "red routes are in operation around the airport site to maintain the safety of passenger, visitors, and staff. Drivers are prohibited to stop, unload or park on the red routes, which are clearly marked around the airport roads via signage and double red road markings."

Within their letter, they've added a couple of additional images, one being a close-up of the sign (i cant post links as a new user unfortunately) and another of a map showing which areas are covered by enforcement and locations of the signs. I can email you the links or pm me and i'll send you the links as I've uploaded them already.

EDIT - pics in link below, you will need to change the first part to http
hxxp://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/g_force_photos/20151231_152652.jpg
hxxp://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/g_force_photos/20151231_152732.jpg

So I need to now prepare a draft of my POPLA appeal. The reason I wanted to include the images was to paint a full picture of the circumstances and I don't want to write something in my POPLA appeal which contradicts or weakens my appeal.

I've done a fair bit of digging around and I've only really paid attention to posts made in 2015 in case the road markings and signage is different to more than 6 months ago. I've checked out the NEWBIE thread also but the draft I'm planning to use is the same/similar as another appeal shown on this website (again, cant post the link) but titled "Help requested with draft APOCA appeal Birmingham, airport" *EDIT* link is in the post before this one by "TheDeep" user. Go to post #6 to see draft.

The main basis of the appeal being the following points:

1) A non-compliant and erroneous PCN failing to meet the conditions of Paragraph 9 of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012, and BPA Guidelines/code of practise (of which APCOA is a member), and therefore there is no keeper liability.

2) The signage on the possible site is inadequate and was either not seen or not understood by the driver, so no contract could have been formed.

3) The ANPR system is unreliable and neither synchronised nor accurate.

4) Proprietary Interest.

However, I can't currently locate the first letter I received, so is it important for me to quote the following in my draft, or can I just omit, as I cant get this information without the first letter to hand (i lose most my things):

"I am the keeper of the vehicle with registration number xxxxxx. On DATE I (registered keeper), received by Royal mail a Parking Charge Notice (PCN), demanding a Charge of £100 from APCOA, due they state, to contravention of dropping off/picking up outside of a designated parking area at Birmingham airport on DATE at TIME. The letter from APCOA was dated DATE, some DAYS working days after the alleged contravention."

Am I going about this the correct way?

(Draft appeal to follow shortly, which will pretty much be like the one in the link above..)

ManxRed

The safety of passengers....

Oh look, a car's stopped on that road!! Think of the passenger and visitor safety!!! Quick, post them a letter to arrive within 14 days of the incident, asking for a fine, that'll secure the safety of all the passengers and visitors.

Idiots.

Redx

you CAN post the link, as long as its not "live"

meaning you change the http to hxxp before submission

try these 2 recent appeals too, for checking against your own

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5346667

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5364943

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5327745

Fruitcake

To answer one of the questions in your original post, the day of the alleged parking event is day zero.


As for PoPLA, I would do some more digging around ANPR as this hasn't been used. It was most likely someone in a van and a mobile camera. I don't think it is allowed. It should either be fixed ANPR cameras or windscreen ticket.


Check that the PoPLA code is valid on the Parking Cowboys website. If it's valid, appeal. If it isn't valid, complain to the BPA and DVLA.


To post links, upload the images to a web hosting site such as tinypc or photobucket. Copy and paste the URL here but change http to hxxp and someone here will change it back to make it useable.


If the road graffiti, sorry, road markings are not mentioned on the signage, add that as an additional point. If they are mentioned, the signs must say exactly what they mean.

Travel4life

The POPLA code is valid on the parking cowboys website.

I can't figure out if it was ANPR or not. I can't find the original PCN letter! argh!

I've now added the links to the images in post #5

Travel4life

Ok, I have found the original PCN. there is no mention of what method was used to capture the images.

Redx

it will be a camera van or similar, not ANPR

plus its not relevant land so POFA2012 and keeper liability isnt involved (so should be part of your appeal)

you can get further pointers etc from this appeal over on pepipoo

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=102393&st=20&start=20