DB Pension of my deceased mother

AnnieMalec

Hi everyone, hoping someone can offer me some advice...

Whilst looking through some of my mothers old things this weekend I have found one of her payslips which had pension contributions on it.

I've done some digging and established that it was a DB pension and found the scheme administrator from the time. As my mother passed away in 2004, it has been a long time since her pension was active, so the administrator has requested her file from archive and said it could be weeks before I hear back from him.

Essentially, I just want to understand my rights here as he advised that they were notified at the time of her death and no suitable dependents were found.

I had just turned 18 at the time of her death, had been caring for her and was not working or in education so was entirely financially dependent on her company sick pay (as she died in service with her employer and was only 57 years old). I was also not in a very good place mental health wise and can most probably get my GP to confirm this in writing for me.

So question 1 - can anyone advise what a suitable dependent is?
question 2 - is it within the administrators rights to refuse the funds my mother paid in if I'm not classed as an "eligible dependent" even though I was financially dependent on her at the time? how can I prove I was an eligible dependent?
question 3 - if I am not entitled to a multiplier of her salary as a dependant, am I able to claim a refund of contributions? If so how does this work?
question 4 - is there anything in particular I should be asking the administrator once he comes back to me to try and secure the funds from the scheme.

This has really concerned me as my mother was employed by her company for over 30 years and was paying a healthy contribution monthly despite being on a rather low salary.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

System

Hi

First of all determine who reported the death to the pension adminstrators.

What letters / documents were exchanged, typically the death certificate.

What was recorded as her wish for payment of any death grant.

What are the scheme rules for a death in service, eg: 2x salary as a death benefit.

What steps did the PA take to establish next of kin etc etc.

What dependants were found, and how were they deemed 'not suitable'? Confirmation in writing naturally.

Do they have an Internal Resolution Disputes Procedure, or something else?

AND of course tread warily and come back here for more help if wanted.

dunstonh

A dependent is a child under age 23. If over 23, they are not dependent (some exclusions apply).

question 2 - is it within the administrators rights to refuse the funds my mother paid in if I'm not classed as an "eligible dependent" even though I was financially dependent on her at the time? how can I prove I was an eligible dependent?

There is no fund to pay to you. What would have been paid is an amount of income for a period.

Was she employed with the scheme employer at the time of death? (if so, a death in service payment would usually have been payable - so if you didnt get it, who did?)

As mentioned above, knowing who filled in the notifications to the scheme would be useful.

hyubh

question 1 - can anyone advise what a suitable dependent is?

The scheme rules defines this, about which the administrator will be able to advise (or furnish you a copy with).

question 2 - is it within the administrators rights to refuse the funds my mother paid in if I'm not classed as an "eligible dependent" even though I was financially dependent on her at the time? how can I prove I was an eligible dependent?

Again, it's the scheme rules that defines whether something is right or wrong here.

question 3 - if I am not entitled to a multiplier of her salary as a dependant, am I able to claim a refund of contributions?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, again, what happens on a death is whatever is in the scheme rules. A payment to the estate or a relevant beneficiary representing the employee contributions paid is one possible eventuality, but not the only one.

Also, was she a pensioner when she died? The wording of your first post seems to suggest not, though potentially she had already started drawing her pension under ill health terms. This matters, since frequently what happens with a death in deferment and a death in payment differs, even if the scheme has a 'guarantee period'... and if it does have a guarantee period, then a death in deferment may lead to one sort of death grant, a death in payment but within the guarantee period another, and a death in payment outside the guarantee period something else again.

If so how does this work?

If it's a public sector or large private sector scheme, name it and we might be able to have a look, otherwise you're just going to have to ask the administrator I'm afraid.

This has really concerned me as my mother was employed by her company for over 30 years and was paying a healthy contribution monthly despite being on a rather low salary.

There is no particular connection between the contributions paid and the benefits earned in a DB scheme. In fact, the most generous final salary schemes historically have tended to be where the employee contribution was precisely zero and the employee was extremely highly paid already...

atush

At 18, and her carer/dependent on her income you should have been classed as a dependent.

Was your mother married at the time she died?

PensionTech

At 18, and her carer/dependent on her income you should have been classed as a dependent.

Unlikely - usually an 18 year old would have to be in full-time education or disabled yourself to be a dependant. It is a frustrating quirk of the legislation that a "dependant" can be a child under 18, or under 23 and in full-time education, or over 23 but disabled; or it can be a person other than a child who is financially dependent on the member no matter the age. So an adult child financially dependent on the member would not have the same status as an unrelated person financially dependent on the member.

That said I would have expected the benefit here to be a lump sum, not a pension (or as well as a pension). Although the issues of being eligible as a "dependant" may exclude the OP from a pension, she should still have been due the lump sum, which is not subject to the same restrictions.

AnnieMalec

dunstonh wrote: »

A dependent is a child under age 23. If over 23, they are not dependent (some exclusions apply).

Was she employed with the scheme employer at the time of death? (if so, a death in service payment would usually have been payable - so if you didnt get it, who did?)

As mentioned above, knowing who filled in the notifications to the scheme would be useful.

Hi, yes she was employed at the time. I received a sum which fell under her employers life assurance policy at the time (i've checked this with the employer and they have confirmed it was the company life assurance scheme, not her pension which paid out) and her employer notified the scheme of her death at the time.

I was under 23 at the time but had left full time education due to my mental health and to help care for my mother.

hyubh wrote: »

The scheme rules defines this, about which the administrator will be able to advise (or furnish you a copy with).
Again, it's the scheme rules that defines whether something is right or wrong here.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, again, what happens on a death is whatever is in the scheme rules. A payment to the estate or a relevant beneficiary representing the employee contributions paid is one possible eventuality, but not the only one.

Also, was she a pensioner when she died? The wording of your first post seems to suggest not, though potentially she had already started drawing her pension under ill health terms. This matters, since frequently what happens with a death in deferment and a death in payment differs, even if the scheme has a 'guarantee period'... and if it does have a guarantee period, then a death in deferment may lead to one sort of death grant, a death in payment but within the guarantee period another, and a death in payment outside the guarantee period something else again.

If it's a public sector or large private sector scheme, name it and we might be able to have a look, otherwise you're just going to have to ask the administrator I'm afraid.

There is no particular connection between the contributions paid and the benefits earned in a DB scheme. In fact, the most generous final salary schemes historically have tended to be where the employee contribution was precisely zero and the employee was extremely highly paid already...

I've spoken to the administrator again and it seems as the scheme closed 7 years ago they are unable to provide me with the scheme rules!

My mother was not a pensioner and had not started drawing from it, she was in full time employment, albeit receiving company sick pay.

She was employed by the Rank Group and the adminstrator was Jardin Lloyd Thomson, which has since been bought by Rothesay Life.

PensionTech wrote: »

Unlikely - usually an 18 year old would have to be in full-time education or disabled yourself to be a dependant. It is a frustrating quirk of the legislation that a "dependant" can be a child under 18, or under 23 and in full-time education, or over 23 but disabled; or it can be a person other than a child who is financially dependent on the member no matter the age. So an adult child financially dependent on the member would not have the same status as an unrelated person financially dependent on the member.

That said I would have expected the benefit here to be a lump sum, not a pension (or as well as a pension). Although the issues of being eligible as a "dependant" may exclude the OP from a pension, she should still have been due the lump sum, which is not subject to the same restrictions.

Yes, I'd just left full time education, though was suffering from depression, which is classed as a disability under the Equality Act 2010, unfortunately after the time period in question.

As the administrator cannot provide me with the scheme rules however, I'm not sure how he has established that within the scheme rules, I must have been in education.

Still feeling really lost!!!

Thank you all for your help so far.....

AnnieMalec

johndough wrote: »

Hi

First of all determine who reported the death to the pension adminstrators.

What letters / documents were exchanged, typically the death certificate.

What was recorded as her wish for payment of any death grant.

What are the scheme rules for a death in service, eg: 2x salary as a death benefit.

What steps did the PA take to establish next of kin etc etc.

What dependants were found, and how were they deemed 'not suitable'? Confirmation in writing naturally.

Do they have an Internal Resolution Disputes Procedure, or something else?

AND of course tread warily and come back here for more help if wanted.

Hi,

My mothers employer notified the scheme of her death and provided the paperwork to them.

I was recorded as her wish in terms of death benefits (I did receive a life assurance payout separate from the pension in 2005).

I've asked the administrator for a copy of the scheme rules and they have advised they are unable to provide them as they no longer operate the scheme and closed it 7 years ago.

I was deemed not suitable as I wasn't in full time education..

The administrator Iv'e been speaking to has advised me they sold the scheme to Rothesay Life AFTER they dealt with this claim and have now referred me to them. I'm not sure that this is correct though, if they dealt with it, why is a new company that has never dealt with it before now taking over.

Confused and lost still.

Thanks for your help

jem16

AnnieMalec wrote: »

Hi, yes she was employed at the time. I received a sum which fell under her employers life assurance policy at the time (i've checked this with the employer and they have confirmed it was the company life assurance scheme, not her pension which paid out)

Often the life assurance scheme is only open to those in the pension scheme. However, whatever it is called, you have received the Death-in-Service benefit.

and her employer notified the scheme of her death at the time.

Then it's more than likely that it would have been dealt with correctly at the time.

I was under 23 at the time but had left full time education due to my mental health and to help care for my mother.

As you had left full-time education this would normally preclude you from any dependent's pension. When my husband died I had to provide a letter each year to prove that my sons were still in full-time education and were entitled to receive a pension from his DB scheme.

As the administrator cannot provide me with the scheme rules however, I'm not sure how he has established that within the scheme rules, I must have been in education.

The check would have been done at the time of your Mother's death when the scheme was still open and the rules would have been available.

However from what you are saying you got all that you were entitled to which was the Life Assurance payout.

atush

Did the OP say that the Life insurance was tied to the work/pension?

It could have been a separate policy?

jem16

atush wrote: »

Did the OP say that the Life insurance was tied to the work/pension?

It could have been a separate policy?

I'm sure it is a separate policy but, as is often the case with DB schemes, conditional on joining the pension scheme. The OP has confirmed it was from work.

AnnieMalec wrote: »

I received a sum which fell under her employers life assurance policy at the time (i've checked this with the employer and they have confirmed it was the company life assurance scheme, not her pension which paid out)

The OP also confirmed that the employer notified the pension scheme.