Loft conversion

mindyourlanguage

Afternoon

Last year we had a loft conversion done. This included two skylights, two dormas, electric, plumbing and a bathroom.

The conversion was a package deal with everything included so we needn't be worried about anything.

When it came to the final payment we held back 5K as there was some snagging to be finished and some cracks started to appear and paint started to flake of the walls and ceiling.

He wouldn't come back and demanded the 5K or he'll tell the council that we have no planning permission! That's when we found out that he hadn't taken out planning permission. We called his bluff and the council got in touch.

We were given a long list of things that had to be put right including the new stairs.

We've been quoted 25K so far, we really can't afford that at the moment.

What options do I have?

Thanks

150940

Did you need planning permission?

New stairs would suggest you've not got building regulations.

5k is a lot to hold back for some paint cracks and I'd suggest you'd lose in court if it were just that. However it appears his work may not be up to scratch.

I'd suggest proper legal advice and not to rely on a forum. Get onto your insurance company and see if you have legal cover.

Sarah27

you need to apply for a retrospective planning permission as the work has already been completed - however, whatever the council tell you to do work wise will need to be done in order to gain approvals and certificates for the work. Try explaining the situation to them and seeing if you could amend the work in stages as and when you could afford it - i know someone personally who lives in a house in a conservation area - she upgraded her windows from timber to UPVC with no planning permission. Sure enough planning found out and demanded she put them back as the original and would not gain her consent for the UPVC windows. Her house is really big and the cost of putting the windows back to the original was somewhere in the region of £20k.

The last I heard she was arranging an installment option with them to change a couple of windows at a time as and when she could afford too so maybe this will help in your instance too.

Hope this helps

Doozergirl

Sarah27 wrote: »

you need to apply for a retrospective planning permission as the work has already been completed - however, whatever the council tell you to do work wise will need to be done in order to gain approvals and certificates for the work. Try explaining the situation to them and seeing if you could amend the work in stages as and when you could afford it - i know someone personally who lives in a house in a conservation area - she upgraded her windows from timber to UPVC with no planning permission. Sure enough planning found out and demanded she put them back as the original and would not gain her consent for the UPVC windows. Her house is really big and the cost of putting the windows back to the original was somewhere in the region of £20k.

The last I heard she was arranging an installment option with them to change a couple of windows at a time as and when she could afford too so maybe this will help in your instance too.

Hope this helps

It is quite different for the OP.

Firstly, most loft conversions fall under permitted development. Unless the OP has had PD rights removed for whatever reason, then planning may not be an issue. The OP needs to know if what is there falls under PD rights.

The question of building regulations, well. The question to ask building control is whether they intend to take enforcement action;
a) at all
b) if the OP refrains from using it as a habitable room.

I presume that the OP understands that planning and building control are two very different different departments.

OP, you have a legal problem here. The builder is clearly a cowboy if they had no regard for the law but responsibilty for compliance ultimately ends with the homeowner. What exactly were you sold? Where is your quote? How much did you pay?

What is on the list of items to rectify, other than the stairs?

I would certainly not pay anything that is left outstanding and I would be writing a short but firmly worded letter to explain that as a professional builder, you expected a professional job. Tell him that you are shocked that he decided to point out that he knew the conversion lacked the relevant permissions; you trusted him and had been given the clear impression by him that everything was included for a professional job. Given that you have now spoken to building control and the cost of rectifying his work will cost in excess of the £5k outstanding, you will not be paying and will be seeking legal advice.

And then get some legal advice!

Bear in mind that some items for a professional loft conversion are unlikely to be included. An amount of the work will involve undoing what he produced in order to make the necessary upgrades, the rest may be new.

I am really keen to see his quotation.

System

It's a shame the old sticky threads are hidden away now....
there is a difference between planning permission and building regs approval...

What did this "package" include? did they say that statutory consents were part of the package?
did they provide a design service from start to finish?
did they give you a completion certificate at the end?
An electrical safety certificate?
Did you ever see a building control surveyor on site at any point during the construction?
Did you have a contract with this company? normally retention sums are set out - 5k is a sizeable chunk if there was no agreement on retentions
If it has been built without building reg approval then it can be a nightmare to rectify issues as they will likely demand that work is opened up to see if it's been built correctly.

It really depends on what paperwork you have and what you signed up for - a lot of contractors will have a small print saying that statutory consents are the responsibility of the employer - although they should have been working from approved drawings!

I would be tempted to pursue the contractor, find out if they are member of any trade bodies etc, and if they have insurance in place - unfortunately they have your money already

Furts

Viewing the post as a potential builder would is likely to raise the following points. It does not mean these are correct but it is a natural default position:

The decision to leave everything with the builder was crazy. This suggests the cheapest quote was sought, or the work was cash in hand, and no due diligence was done on both your proposal and the builder.

Did you never ask "When is the Building Inspector coming to do a check?"

Holding back £5000 is equally crazy. This suggests the funds were not available to finance the works.

Moving on, any builder will now be quoting a premium to get the work rectified. This will because of the unknowns and because of the potential liabilities. Add to this the builder may have concerns about an ability to pay.

You admit you cannot fund the works using a builder.

Returning the works to their original status is probably not a cost effective way forward. Consequently, the money saving way forward is to recognise what has gone wrong, and adopt a self building approach to get the work done on a tight budget. But do not be tempted to cut corners this time because you need to have Building Inspections and a Completion Certificate.

Doozergirl

Furts wrote: »

Viewing the post as a potential builder would is likely to raise the following points. It does not mean these are correct but it is a natural default position:

The decision to leave everything with the builder was crazy. This suggests the cheapest quote was sought, or the work was cash in hand, and no due diligence was done on both your proposal and the builder.

Did you never ask "When is the Building Inspector coming to do a check?"

Holding back £5000 is equally crazy. This suggests the funds were not available to finance the works.

Moving on, any builder will now be quoting a premium to get the work rectified. This will because of the unknowns and because of the potential liabilities. Add to this the builder may have concerns about an ability to pay.

You admit you cannot fund the works using a builder.

Returning the works to their original status is probably not a cost effective way forward. Consequently, the money saving way forward is to recognise what has gone wrong, and adopt a self building approach to get the work done on a tight budget. But do not be tempted to cut corners this time because you need to have Building Inspections and a Completion Certificate.

I see where you're coming from but our offering is a complete service - admittedly I will immediately be talking about architects, planning, building control, structural engineers, but it isn't unusual to want a builder to deal with everything.

I do think that you may be right abour price etc. And I sense a lack of shopping around (or a complicity) as even if the client is ignorant of those matters, any honest builder (and you know we are far more prevalent than the dishonest ones) will have spoken about it.

I think the builder deserves to have the money withheld. They've shown they knew exactly what they were doing - unless the OP was complicit and the builder contacted BC themselves as retaliation, in which case one makes a bed and has to lie in it. Buy cheap, pay dear.

In fact, the more I think about, the more I think the OP made their bed.

macman

Basics: what was the original agreed contract price? £5K witheld, £25K to correct the defects? That indicates virtually starting again, based on typical loft conversion around £35K.
I'd agree that the OP is confusing PP with building regs approval, and suspect that we are also going to be told that there was no written spec or contract...
Timeline is also confusing me. The conversion was done in 2014, so has this been in dispute for nearly a year now? If so, the builder has made no effort to recover the o/s £5K?

chappers

To be fair to the OP not everyone is as clued up as you or I with regards to regulations etc, for some people this will be the only building works they have done in their lives. I have provided plenty of all in services for clients including design, planning Breg, SEs , build overs.
Unfortunately this one worries me a lot , either the OP was complicit or the builder has taken them for a ride, he knew he needed building regs, what worries me even further is that if he couldn't get the stairs right then what else might be wrong.
But as DG says maybe the OP was complicit to all of that.

Furts

macman wrote: »

Basics: what was the original agreed contract price? £5K witheld, £25K to correct the defects? That indicates virtually starting again, based on typical loft conversion around £35K.
I'd agree that the OP is confusing PP with building regs approval, and suspect that we are also going to be told that there was no written spec or contract...
Timeline is also confusing me. The conversion was done in 2014, so has this been in dispute for nearly a year now? If so, the builder has made no effort to recover the o/s £5K?

Doozergirl and chappers provide an all in service if required. This is fine but there is a flaw here with regard to OP. This all in service would be explained to the client, because the client needs to know what is being done for them. For example, this is necessary to give the client a time frame for procedures before building commences. It is also advisable so the client knows what services they are paying for! Consequently it is difficult to understand why OP was unaware of any regulations on anything and any requirements for calculations, details and Inspection.

I accept that many people are not clued up on building, but here the post boils down to a simple concept of common sense which has no involvement with building. OP says the builder was contracted to do "everything" The default follow on to this is what does "everything" mean? The consumer then gets something agreed as to what is and is not covered by this term. The follow on is if the consumer feels out of their comfort zone they contact a Professional, or seek guidance from the Council, or even post on a Forum.

OP is up a creek without a paddle, but my intuition is the builder is not the only party who should be accepting responsibility here.

chappers

The problem here is not having the full history, but the conversion sounds like a fairly full scale one with dormers , bathroom etc.

If I take on a job "all in" then the first thing that goes to the client is a fee proposal which lays down cost and estimates for various parts of the job, including what I am going to carry out and which fees are disbursements to others and whether they are fixed or provisional costs.
Not all builders are as scrupulous and not all clients are clued up. I have lost count of the number of times I have gone to look at a job and the first the homeowner was aware of planning or Bregs, is when I turn up.

I have done jobs in the past where the client has said they are going to take on the responsibility of BR and planning, and I know that they have no intention of doing so, but my quote/contract reflects the fact.
Conspiring with a client to flout the building regulations is another matter entirely and I have on occasion carried out minor works like this, but wouldn't even entertain a full loft conversion.
Without the OP coming back we won't know if this is a case of naivety or complicity.