Loft electrics not to regs - help from electricians/legal advice

Halle71

We bought a house 18 months ago that had a loft extension.
We did a bit of work up there a year ago - split a big bedroom into two and replaced the bathroom but as we were going to do a ground floor extension, we left elec sign off until that was completed.

A couple of weeks ago, the builders had their electrician in to sign off the ground floor extension and they told us that there was a problem and the rcd consumer unit would need replacing. This wasn't a massive shock as the switches didn't seem to correspond the correct areas and other anomalies we'd noticed. The electrician came this weekend to fit it and when he came to test everything he informed us of a big problem. The following is my layman's interpretation so please forgive any mistakes!

When the loft was built the new second floor should have had a separate circuit (rings?) for the sockets and one for the lights, wired to the ground floor rcd unit separate to any other floors. Instead, they have been joined to the first floor, meaning that the first floor sockets, loft sockets and loft lights all run off one 32 amp fuse. Not only is this non-compliant and the electrician cannot sign us off, but is is dangerous because the lights should have a 6 amp fuse - there could be a problem with them and the fuse wouldn't blow because it's 32 amp.

There is a 'PowerBreaker' (not sure what this is) on the loft landing that is marked 5 amp max and we sometimes have to use it to turn the lights on when they are not working but the electrician said this doesnt help our problem which seems strange as it seems like a circuit breaker for the lights......

The loft was built by a reputable local business in 2007 and they are still in business.
I have a 10 year guarantee passed on by the previous owner so we are still in guarantee.
I also have the building control completion certificate. How can this be? The electrician and his mate rolled their eyes and laughed when they saw this. They suggested it could have been signed off incorrectly by a private building regs inspector.
I did ask the electrician if it could have been something the electrician we used to divide the loft up had done but he said no - there is literally no wiring for the loft at the ground floor rcd unit.

The problem is more than money. We have just finished out renovation - every surface has been rebuilt, replastered, redecorated or refloored and the electrician said it will be messy to rewire - I feel like crying - we have been renovating for a year and this feels like another mountain to climb and life is pretty stressful at the moment.

Legal questions - will the loft company honour their guarantee to new owners? Will the fact we have done work in the loft affect this guarrantee even though we can prove their fault? The guarantee only covers faulty new materials and workmanship - I presume our issue is covered within this? What about building control signing it off?

Electricians - is this as bad as we have been led to believe? What are your thoughts? How can we have building control approval?

The electrician is going to call NICEIC tomorrow to see if he can still sign off the extension. Would they be able to advise me directly on how to proceed?
He has also told me to call the loft company tomorrow and ask for the electrical inspection.


Thanks guys

H




.

phill99

The problem is that since 2007 and 18 months ago, anything could have happened to the electrics.

The original builder that did the loft conversion will say that at the time, the electrics were as per current regs in force at the time and everything was fine when they left site and that anything wrong in the intervening years must be as a result of the homeowners interference and alteration.

It is up to you to prove that the poor work was undertaken by the builder, that certificates were falsified etc. You will never prove this and it is one persons word against another.

All you have is curcumstantial evidence.

Did you have a homebuyers report when you bought the house 18 months ago? If so, one of the standard clauses in the report would be to get an independent check done on the electrics, gas, boiler etc.

I assume that you ignored this advice as this would have more than likely picked these issues up.

diable

So the sparks says the CSU needs replacing, are you sure the loft conversion wasn't on a separate circuit?

brightontraveller

I smell BS Don't let them change CU ,,,, Say thanks sign off what you’ve done,,, I’ll get someone else in to check out the rest Then get written report from another sparks and them if you wish and compare ?
Regs are not retrospective ? If they meet those of time of installation as to if they would pass now is irrelevant?

Jonesya

Some of what you've been told appears to be wrong:

There's normally nothing wrong with supplying both 1st floor and loft sockets from the same circuit, so off a single 32A breaker, assuming they've been wired correctly, so using correct cable sizing, extending the ring, or correctly wired unfused/fused spurs. In many houses it's common to have a 32A ring supplying both ground and 1st floor sockets. That shouldn't be a problem, you need some more evidence/detail from this electrician on why they think it's a problem.

The lighting could be a problem, it does need fusing down but if you're saying its fed via a 'Powerbreaker' unit with a 5A fuse in the loft, it sounds like it may already be fused down. What your describing sounds like an RCD protected fused-connection unit, which would be an acceptable way of fusing down a 32A circuit to supply some lighting.

It sounds like the loft installation company have fitted some sockets fed off the existing ring, and some lights fed off an RCD fused connection unit. There's nothing wrong with that.

You need a second opinion from another electrician.

Halle71

Thanks for all your advice - I will find someone for a second opinion.
I haven't contacted the loft company yet but I may ask them for the electrical inspection anyway.

I'll report back :-)

Ectophile

I can't help wondering if the new electrician is trying to get you to pay for a very expensive fix for a minor problem.

There's no rule that says each floor must have its own ring. It's considered good practice these days, but in most homes, the load on the upstairs ring will be minimal anyway.

The lighting could do with a second opinion. If it's an un-fused spur off the power then that's wrong. If it's fused down (or through a circuit breaker), then that's a bit poor - if the power goes off then so does the lights. But there's no reason why fixing that should need a new consumer unit.

Halle71

Ectophile wrote: »

I can't help wondering if the new electrician is trying to get you to pay for a very expensive fix for a minor problem.

There's no rule that says each floor must have its own ring. It's considered good practice these days, but in most homes, the load on the upstairs ring will be minimal anyway.

The lighting could do with a second opinion. If it's an un-fused spur off the power then that's wrong. If it's fused down (or through a circuit breaker), then that's a bit poor - if the power goes off then so does the lights. But there's no reason why fixing that should need a new consumer unit.

Hmmmm.

He recommended the new consumer unit and was fitting/testing it when he discovered the loft issue. We had noticed that a couple of the trip switches corresponded to the wrong area and there were surplus switches (electric fire, alarm, electric shower) that could have led back to when the house was two flats. But the unit also didn't look old (prob 2007 when the loft was built) so maybe we have just paid £500 for something that didn't need doing :-(
All he came to do was sign off the extension.

He sent the certificate this evening and in the section for 'comments on existing installation' has written 'Loft lights and loft sockets connected with 1st floor socket to one 32A MCB. I recommend change loft wiring to two separate circuits'.

Is this just a*se covering or should we do it for safety and will building regs have a problem with issuing a certificate for the extension even though it's not related?

Thanks for all the advice!

zax47

Three pairs of jeans plus some overalls couldn't cover his 'arris any better.!

Had a great long reply ready biu the others already said it. We might do things differently currently, but not for any major safety reason is what you've got wrong.

The new CU will have been necessary as all his new work in the extension has to meet current regs!

Halle71

zax47 wrote: »

Three pairs of jeans plus some overalls couldn't cover his 'arris any better.!

Had a great long reply ready biu the others already said it. We might do things differently currently, but not for any major safety reason is what you've got wrong.

Thanks for this - as long as the kids are safe up there and building regs sign the bloody extension off I am happy.

I should also add that I'm not being a total mug - we were already suspicious about the loft sign off because the first floor does not have fire doors but instead still has the original period doors. Even in 2007 this was a requirement I believe.

Risteard

Halle71 wrote: »

will building regs have a problem with issuing a certificate

Building Regulations (as a statutory document) cannot issue a certificate.

Building Control can issue a certificate to confirm compliance with the Building Regulations.

As for your question, if the lights are fused down then they are neither dangerous nor non-compliant with BS7671 (although it is a completely rubbish way to do it unless there was no other option).