Discounts on free postage items

Cornucopia

Flyonthewall wrote: »

If you are running a business (regardless of whether you are aware of it) and not declaring things HMRC could easily find out and then you'll have more issues than wondering how to do postage discounts.

Okay - for the fourth time, I am clear on what I need to do for HMRC, and probably over-declare. Since I don't pay income tax, I tend to err on the side of caution.

As far as I am aware, HMRC just want the tax. They are not bothered about the exact nature of someone's eBay registration (unless it is being used to hide taxable income). So, if you're going to keep coming back to HMRC rules, then (a) we're wasting each other's time, and (b) it's not surprising that this is confusing. Could that process be tighter? Yes, of course. eBay could require an NI number for a start.

I think it's becoming clear that eBay are trying to "do the right thing" by encouraging business sign-up. However, if they were operating the rules as HMRC see them, probably 99% of their sellers would be businesses, and they aren't.

At the same time, their bundling of the various rules together probably works for the typical PAYE person who sells semi-professionally on eBay in their spare time. However, I am not that person (neither PAYE or semi-pro eBayer). For me, the rules look contrived, confusing, ambiguous and arbitrary.

I'm just asking for the background to them (and to understand the proper "black & white" of, particularly, the consumer rules since the eBay rules are vague and I already understand the HMRC rules).

If no one knows that detail, that's fine...

Cornucopia

Flyonthewall wrote: »

I think you're overthinking it.

It's what I do.

Chances are if you're constantly selling numerous items one of the other points also applies.

Indeed, and I was going to mention that their rules had a significant degree of overlap.

soolin

I don't think most people find the rules ambiguous , from the list you posted you don't get to choose which points you say yes or no to- the list goes over and above the clear rules of a business just to cover those people who don't get the idea.

However, I am not noted for my ability to explain things well so I will leave this now.

Flyonthewall

Cornucopia wrote: »

Okay - for the fourth time, I am clear on what I need to do for HMRC, and probably over-declare. Since I don't pay income tax, I tend to err on the side of caution.

I put IF. I made a point of stating it and made it italic so that it be clear that it may not apply, but to be certain, just in case, as friendly advice, I'd let you know.

If you're going to keep coming back to HMRC rules, then (a) we're wasting each other's time, and (b) it's not surprising that this is confusing.

It's not confusing, you're just making it harder than it should be and reading things as you want rather than how they're meant.

I think it's becoming clear that eBay are trying to "do the right thing" by encouraging business sign-up. However, if they were operating the rules as HMRC see them, probably 99% of their sellers would be businesses, and they aren't.

At the same time, their bundling of the various rules together probably works for the typical PAYE person who sells semi-professionally on eBay in their spare time. However, I am not that person (neither PAYE or semi-pro eBayer). For me, the rules look contrived, confusing, ambiguous and arbitrary.

I'm just asking for the background to them (and to understand the proper "black & white" of, particularly, the consumer rules since the eBay rules are vague and I already understand the HMRC rules).

If no one knows that detail, that's fine...

The rules are for everyone and written out clearly. As I said in my last post, you appear to be overthinking certain things and other things I've tried to explain, but you've taken them the wrong way or insisted you know what you're doing despite saying you were confused and none of it's clear in numerous posts.

You are already selling on ebay so you should understand most of it anyway. Business sellers have a few extra rules (basically to follow with the law), but you keep insisting you're not a business so they wouldn't apply and I therefore can't understand what is confusing you. As I already said, ebay rules do not overwrite the law so if you understand HMRC rules then there really should be no confusion.

Flyonthewall

Cornucopia wrote: »

Indeed, and I was going to mention that their rules had a significant degree of overlap.

Yeah, they overlap because as a business you'd be doing more than one of them so it should be clear that you should be classed as a business. The list is basically as soolin has said.

And again, not saying you are and tried to word it so as not to suggest, but just to be clear I wasn't suggesting it.

Cornucopia

Well, I also like to practice humility so when I say "I am confused", what I really mean is that "this thing is confusing, and having made reasonable efforts to understand why it is saying what it appears to say not only I am none the wiser, but the lack of detail seems to suggest someone has messed-up".

Having had a further think about it, I suspect the basic stumbling block is that whilst HMRC rules are the most important, here, their use of terms like "business" and "self-employment" are slightly misleading or are an attempt to cover all circumstances including those where they do not apply. The essence of the HMRC rules are to declare relevant (eBay) profits as additional income, that has been received untaxed, and needs to be added to your personal tax calculation. The rules are broad and would potentially catch much of the selling activity on eBay UK.

However, just because someone is declaring additional income to HMRC it doesn't automatically make them a "business" - the tax liability exists for you as an individual regardless of your trading status on eBay.

Thanks for your input on this, but it doesn't sound as if you have the info I'm after, and we are way OT anyway.

Flyonthewall

Cornucopia wrote: »

Well, I also like to practice humility so when I say "I am confused", what I really mean is that "this thing is confusing, and having made reasonable efforts to understand why it is saying what it appears to say not only I am none the wiser, but the lack of detail seems to suggest someone has messed-up".

Well you've had two people on here giving you more detail and we understand the original details that have confused you.

Having had a further think about it, I suspect the basic stumbling block is that whilst HMRC rules are the most important, here, their use of terms like "business" and "self-employment" are slightly misleading or are an attempt to cover all circumstances including those where they do not apply. The essence of the HMRC rules are to declare relevant (eBay) profits as additional income, that has been received untaxed, and needs to be added to your personal tax calculation. The rules are broad and would potentially catch much of the selling activity on eBay UK.

They're not misleading at all. It's what you are/you're doing in them circumstances. They do apply, that's why they cover them.

The rules are straightforward. They're not trying to mislead you or trick you or catch you out.

However, just because someone is declaring additional income to HMRC it doesn't automatically make them a "business" - the tax liability exists for you as an individual regardless of your trading status on eBay.

Thanks for your input on this, but it doesn't sound as if you have the info I'm after, and we are way OT anyway.

If you're declaring additional income you're self employed and should be registered as so.

You've been given the relevant info, I'm not sure what other info you could possibly need relating to this. Yeah, rather OT, but I expected it to be a quick couple of posts on a matter that could be really important and you may not have realised to be the case.

Cornucopia

Flyonthewall wrote: »

Well you've had two people on here giving you more detail and we understand the original details that have confused you.

Not seen the evidence of that detail, I'm afraid.

They're not misleading at all. It's what you are/you're doing in them circumstances. They do apply, that's why they cover them.

The rules are straightforward. They're not trying to mislead you or trick you or catch you out.

No, I don't think they are trying to trick me. I do think there is some unhelpful over-simplification though.

I just want to know the detail behind the eBay summary of the rules for my own interest, and to ensure I stay within them.

If you're declaring additional income you're self employed and should be registered as so.

Not true. Neither my rental income as a Landlord nor my incidental profits from eBay make ME "self-employed" such that I have to register with HMRC - they just expect the amounts to be declared on a tax return. If I were PAYE, that would probably be different - I would at least need to request a tax return.

You've been given the relevant info, I'm not sure what other info you could possibly need relating to this.

Obviously there are things like underlying legislation and/or tax regulations, and these would generally be much more detailed than the series of 7 bullet points that eBay has.

We can take the tax regulations as read, as I am already compliant with those.

Yeah, rather OT, but I expected it to be a quick couple of posts on a matter that could be really important and you may not have realised to be the case.

As long as the HMRC element is taken care of, the rest doesn't seem that important, but I would ideally like to confirm that.

I found this...

http://andrewminalto.com/distance-selling-regulations-on-ebay/

Flyonthewall

Cornucopia wrote: »

Not seen the evidence of that detail, I'm afraid.

It's there, but you keep insisting your not a business any time I mentioned how it works as a business or what makes you a business you and didn't answer at least one question that would have helped clear things up.

I just want to know the detail behind the eBay summary of the rules for my own interest, and to ensure I stay within them.

It's on the ebay help pages, although as you're already selling it's quite worrying you don't already know the rules.

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/questions/what-rules-selling-items.html

So don't sell any of the items they list on their prohibited and restricted items lists (http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/items-ov.html).

Describe things without bad language, dodgy links/scripting or spamming.

The item sent must be the same as what is listed (easily done by listing things fully, fairly, clearly and with clear, quality photos).

All very simple.

Not true. Neither my rental income as a Landlord nor my incidental profits from eBay make ME "self-employed" such that I have to declare that to HMRC. If I were PAYE, that would probably be different - I would at least need to request a tax return.

Making an income as a landlord would usually mean you have to declare it. If you're bringing in an income and you can work when you want (e.g. list items when you feel like it or going to fix something in a house when you want to) and you are responsible for it all then that means you're classed as self employed.

Even if you're within the personal allowance and won't be paying tax it should still be declared.

Being PAYE or not has nothing to do with it.

Obviously there are things like underlying legislation and/or tax regulations, and these would generally be much more detailed than the series of 7 bullet points that eBay has.

We can take the tax regulations as read, as I am already compliant with those.

Ebay isn't the law though so they state the basics to cover themselves and to help sellers, but it's up to the seller to make sure they're following the law and to read up on it elsewhere if they're unsure.

As long as the HMRC element is taken care of, the rest doesn't seem that important, but I would ideally like to confirm that.

I found this...

http://andrewminalto.com/distance-selling-regulations-on-ebay/

Technically it is, but that includes more than just declaring income and if you're running a genuine business then you should see it all as important and be doing everything officially and properly.

Only read the very top of that, but what I've read looks to be correct.

thebestnameshavegone

The article seems fairly clear and repeats one or two points that have been raised here.

Ebay's rules are that if you:

*buy to re-sell (what you buy doesn't have to be brand new)
or
*make to re-sell
or
* act as a trading assistant

...then you are a Business Seller and need to register as such on Ebay. You will need a returns policy (private sellers don't have to accept change of mind returns as far as I know), but on the plus side as Soolin states previously, many buyers prefer to buy from business sellers so there's a possibility of increased sales. Business sellers can also open shops, thus enabling the use of Good Till Cancelled listings.

Another reason to trade within Ebay's rules is that if someone reports you for trading as a private seller when they believe that you are not (and some business sellers will do this if you are in competition with them), Ebay can close your account. And prevent you from opening another one.

Most business sellers run a private account as well - they usually buy using that account and also use it when selling off their old books, clothes, etc.

I won't go into the HMRC implications as it sounds as if you have that covered and already declare any income.

Hope this helps.