unfair dismissal

sangie595

paddyw wrote: »

She was suspended then invited to a disciplinary meeting - prior to the meeting she emailed hr and explained what had happened and also pointed out that the colleague she was working with at the time doesnt like her (my friend is popular with customers - her colleague is sour faced and rude) and has been vindictive in asking a customer to lodge a complaint. So at the disciplinary meeting, because of the email, they were aware. Sacked her on the spot!

And that was, I am sorry to say, exactly the wrong argument. Whether it is true or not, and whatever the reason was for her being reported, she did it. When you are guilty you never go on the offensive against the people who reported you. You admit you did it and apologise profusely - and if that gets you off the hook you make sure never to give someone who doesn't like you the ammunition they want in the future. She was reported for breaking policy - attacking the person responsible for the report appears vindictive, and attempting to shift the blame. The employer generally wants a quiet life. What she presented them with was her inability to follow policy, AND her inability to get on with colleagues. It doesn't matter whether the other person likes her or not - she is the one who said that her colleague was being vindictive and doesn't like her. And that reflects badly on her argument against dismissal. There are always shades of grey in these things - introducing them invites people to make up their own mind, and that is rarely going to fall in your favour.

She should ensure that her appeal leaves this alone - concentrate on her regret, and the harshness of the penalty as a first offense and one not intended. Don't launch counter attacks again.

paddyw_2

sanjie595 - of the two options of a tribunal or being allowed to have 'resigned' on her record, she would prefer to be able to say she has left.

sangie595

paddyw wrote: »

sanjie595 - of the two options of a tribunal or being allowed to have 'resigned' on her record, she would prefer to be able to say she has left. So angry about the colleague getting a customer to ring up and complain ('customer' was actually a personal friend of the colleague). How spiteful can you get!

I don't disagree at all. But I have to keep coming back to the point - she did it. Whatever the reason. I even agree that it was little more than an absent minded misjudgement - having damned well done exactly the same thing myself before now! But you need to wind it in about the colleague - and in your shoes I might amend your posts because this is so unique a situation that there can't be many cases of it - she could be identified if the wrong person reads it, and you are maybe not helping her case!

Right now it cannot get any worse, so you need to focus on the constructive. What is done - right or wrong - is done. Just be careful you don't encourage her to make it worse. This isn't her colleagues "fault", or anyone else's. She walked into it. Focus on getting over how sorry she is.

paddyw_2

Thank you so much for your help x I have to admit, I am more angry about the colleague than she is. So we will take your advice on board and at the meeting will apologise profusely and see if she can get them to accept resignation.

Off to delete a few posts about the colleague now - I will let you know what happens

Many thanks

FBaby

What is she appealing against? An appeal is about challenging the process, ie. they didn't follow their own procedures. What did they do wrong that she believes might have affected the final decision?

If her reason for the appeal is to challenge the decision itself, then she is wasting her time. That's not what an appeal is about. She had her chance to put her case forward at the actual disciplinary meeting, now it is too late.

The argument that the punishment is too harsh is not a defense in itself. It could be put as a suggestion, but ultimately, it is for the company to decide. The fact that a customer was involved in the complaint is enough to justify that the incident put the company in disrepute.

I expect the reason why she has been asked to travel is because they know she is wasting their time but they have to go through it, so therefore consider that is for her to face the disruption of travelling rather than them.

I do feel sorry for your friend as clearly she didn't realise there and then the seriousness of what she was doing, but from what you've stated, it doesn't look like the company has done anything wrong.

sangie595

FBaby wrote: »

What is she appealing against? An appeal is about challenging the process, ie. they didn't follow their own procedures. What did they do wrong that she believes might have affected the final decision?

If her reason for the appeal is to challenge the decision itself, then she is wasting her time. That's not what an appeal is about. She had her chance to put her case forward at the actual disciplinary meeting, now it is too late.

The argument that the punishment is too harsh is not a defense in itself. It could be put as a suggestion, but ultimately, it is for the company to decide. The fact that a customer was involved in the complaint is enough to justify that the incident put the company in disrepute.

I expect the reason why she has been asked to travel is because they know she is wasting their time but they have to go through it, so therefore consider that is for her to face the disruption of travelling rather than them.

I do feel sorry for your friend as clearly she didn't realise there and then the seriousness of what she was doing, but from what you've stated, it doesn't look like the company has done anything wrong.

Unfortunately I mostly agree. But I do think that it is worth trying to get the dismissal overturned as too harsh a decision - employers can have an appeal about anything they want to have an appeal about, and there is nothing to lose at this stage. I also doubt it will change their minds, but it is worth a try. Unfortunately most people don't realise that unfair dismissal isn't about "unfairness". It is about unfairness in law - as in an employer acting outside the law - not about something being "unfair". And on that bass I would agree that there is a good chance that the employer would win any tribunal.


I might suggest, although I wouldn't suggest lying exactly, that if the appeal fails then the OP's friend could perhaps go out and do some voluntary work. It could be suggested that the OP left her job for reasons connected to her fear of a difficult pregnancy (not entirely untrue) and then she did some part-time voluntary work - and that would provide her last reference?

paddyw_2

Thanks for your comments. The meeting has been rearranged to a more local site. Chatted to her this morning and yes, she is aware that she is probably p****ng in the wind but on the other hand we have seen the company that she works for absolutley walk all over their staff and no one ever, not in this area anyway, challenged them so - nothing ventured nothing gained. She is going to see if they will take her back - if not she will see if they will allow her to resign.

jobbingmusician

I stress that I am not an expert.

However, some good points have been made in this thread, but your original point is that the dismissal was unfair. On the face of it, I see no reason why this was an unfair dismissal. I can see that potentially it was a HARSH dismissal, but to be unfair the employer has to be an unreasonable employer, or discriminate against a protected characteristic.

You have a chance on the second point. Your friend is pregnant, and had just found this out. I don't understand why she had a e-cig in her hand, but if you could find a good reason why she had the cigarette out, I suspect that the argument 'I had just found that I was pregnant, I was distracted by this news and absentmindedly took a drag in my confusion' would probably work. Especially if accompanied by the true statement 'I really was confused, because of course I would not dream of smoking, even e-cigs, while I was pregnant if I'd been thinking about what I was doing'. (Friend might have to demonstrate that she has stopped smoking, though! - which I hope she has done.)

FBaby

I suspect that the argument 'I had just found that I was pregnant, I was distracted by this news and absentmindedly took a drag in my confusion' would probably work

Oh please! If pregnancy was known to cause such level of confusion when discovered, how at risk would that put female surgeons, train drivers, even hairdressers...

I can imagine my hairdresser turning my hair jet black rather than blond saying 'oops, sorry got confused, had just found out in the toilets than I am pregnant, I'm sure you understand!'

paddyw_2

lol FBaby - cheered us up!