PCN 10 feet from my front door

SmithJones

Hi All,

The Newbies Guide said I should create a new post for any PCNs from Socure aspace.

Situation

I live on a Private Road with permitted bays. My wife’s car was parked overnight without a permit displayed (we do own a permit but it was in use by another vehicle).

Awoke the next morning to find a windscreen notice for “failure to display a valid permit”. There had been 12 minutes between the vehicle first being seen and the ticket being issued.

It was a cold night and the screen was very frosty so I’m dubious as to the quality of any evidence that may exist.

The road is sign-posted with Socure aSpace signage; but I disagree with having to pay to park in my own estate.

Next steps

I have access to a solicitors firm. Would it make sense to have the appeal written on legal letterhead or is that too aggressive at the appeal stage?

Should I request evidence of the alleged "failure to display a valid permit"? (on the assumption the evidence is weak/non-existent as windscreen was too frosty).

What do I absolutely need to include in my appeal? (EG: something about Beavis vs Parkingeye?)

It is almost at the 20 day mark so I am getting ready to write my appeal. Any advice on doing so will be greatly appreciated.

Smith & Jones.

The_Slithy_Tove

Primarily need to know what the exact arrangement are for parking. Is the property freehold or leasehold? Is it owned or rented? The deeds/lease/rental agreement will specifiy exactly who owns what (e.g. whether there is a specific parking place with the property and whether it is part of the owned property or not) and what arrangement there may be relating to it. Need to see the EXACT wording.

Don't bother spending money on a solicitor. They'll have less specialist knowledge around these matters than the combined wisdom of MSE.

Half_way

Important, please answer the below, if you dont answer these questions the advice may be a bit muddled.

The_Slithy_Tove wrote: »

Primarily need to know what the exact arrangement are for parking. Is the property freehold or leasehold? Is it owned or rented? The deeds/lease/rental agreement will specifiy exactly who owns what (e.g. whether there is a specific parking place with the property and whether it is part of the owned property or not) and what arrangement there may be relating to it. Need to see the EXACT wording.

Don't bother spending money on a solicitor. They'll have less specialist knowledge around these matters than the combined wisdom of MSE.

ampersand

'I have access to a solicitors firm.' - TST, I am not reading that as op spending money on a solicitor necessarily, but as having access to said stationery if it puts scumpany on notice that op is not a pushover.

If wrong, my apologies.
SAS [Ha! I think not] are BPA Members. At 1st rebuttal stage, advice is simply to use this as a simple fishing exercise [c-m's phrase:-)]for a POPLA no.

Await others' input. Should popla be necessary, 2 points:

1. Beavis Appeal judgment is likely in the coming month and weight/focus/order of appeal points may alter.
2. It is too soon for us to see how OS Ltd [new popla] are adjudicating. At this stage, we're waiting to see if any change to established grounds/paths may be necessary or recommended.
For the moment, proceed as before, with gpeol dropped to last point and post up any draft for a critique.

The_Slithy_Tove

Beavis is entirely irrelevant in this case. Beavis relates to a retail car park. Private residential parking is so utterly different, there are no parallels whatever the SC outcome.

SmithJones

Thanks for your quick responses, guys. Answers & my arguments, below:

The_Slithy_Tove wrote: »

Primarily need to know what the exact arrangement are for parking. Is the property freehold or leasehold? Is it owned or rented? The deeds/lease/rental agreement will specifiy exactly who owns what (e.g. whether there is a specific parking place with the property and whether it is part of the owned property or not) and what arrangement there may be relating to it. Need to see the EXACT wording.

The estate comprises of leasehold flats and freehold houses. I own a freehold house. I've checked the deeds and there is no mention of parking arrangements. It does however say I have the right to: "...pass and repass with or without motor vehicles from and to the property..."

I suspect that parking in a bay is an unwritten benefit of the freeholders.

ampersand wrote: »

but as having access to said stationery if it puts scumpany on notice that op is not a pushover.

Correct

ampersand wrote: »

For the moment, proceed as before, with gpeol dropped to last point and post up any draft for a critique.

Thanks for this point - completely forgot. Will gpeol argument be valid? I see no mention of "breach" on the pcn - or is a breach implied with the windscreen notice and the yellow signage around the estate which states "contractual agreement"

The_Slithy_Tove wrote: »

Private residential parking is so utterly different, there are no parallels whatever the SC outcome.

What's an "SC Outcome" (Sorry - total newbie).


I'm going to write up my appeal tomorrow; but here are the general arguments:

1) Evidence the landowner of the estate has appointed SAS to issue tickets
1a) to provide proof if they have worked with the landowner via the managing agent
2) No permit is required to park according to deeds
3) gpeol
4) Anything else??

Umkomaas

SC = Supreme Court, where the Beavis case is currently at. No result as yet, likely date is anything from tomorrow until November. Hopefully before Christmas, then we'll all know better where things stand!

Fruitcake

Don't over think this. At this stage all you need to do is appeal using the template letter in the Sticky thread for NEWBIES exactly as it is. Use solicitors' notepaper for effect if you want, but don't imply you are a member of the solicitor's company (unless you are.) Just let the PPC sweat on that one.


If it is rejected, then you appeal to PoPLA.


Do not pay, do not ignore, do not reveal who was driving, do not miss the appeal deadline.

The_Slithy_Tove

SmithJones wrote: »

The estate comprises of leasehold flats and freehold houses. I own a freehold house. I've checked the deeds and there is no mention of parking arrangements. It does however say I have the right to: "...pass and repass with or without motor vehicles from and to the property..."

I suspect that parking in a bay is an unwritten benefit of the freeholders.

Don't just "suspect", CHECK!

"Pass and repass" doesn't mean park, that much is simply saying that no-one can hinder or deny your passage to and from the property.

The deeds/contract of purchase should have a plan which normally has the bits you own outlined in red. Does that include the parking space? If it does, then it's a slam-dunk, and you should tell the PPC to get off your land forthwith. If it's part of the common areas, then there must be some paperwork somewhere which stipulates who owns it and what can and cannot be done where.

Herzlos

SmithJones wrote: »

or is a breach implied with the windscreen notice and the yellow signage around the estate which states "contractual agreement"

They are claiming it's a contractual agreement, because with a breach they can only ask for damages (i.e. £0). It's a load of nonsense because:
1. Contractual agreements are subject to VAT, yet it's not mentioned anywhere and the parking company will ignore requests for a VAT invoice
2. You can't contractually agree to do something that's forbidden "No parking. You agree to pay £100 if you park" is legal nonsense
3. They are essentially saying "park however you want for £100", so the aim isn't to reduce parking.

Basically, the parking companies keep getting shot down as their money making schemes all turn out to be illegal, so they keep changing the terms about randomly hoping they'll find a model that the courts support.