MoneySaving Poll: Should the UK stay in the EU?

System

Regardless of the outcome, I hope we don't need to wait for the end of 2017 for the vote - I know I sound churlish but many of the 'little englanders' aren't making sense already....

One said 'Britain can't negotiate free trade agreements with China but Iceland can'. Since the EU is a customs union, obviously it has to negotiate for the bloc.

Nigel F said that once the UK leaves the EU, it will automatically retain membership of the EEA ( European Economic Area) except that the UK is a member of the EEA as part of it's EU membership.

Stonker

It is unclear indeed exactly what we are having a referendum for indeed. I have heard a number of people claim that we will remain in the EEA but of course there is no agreement over what the conditions would be. I have written to the Gov't about this very issue but so far they have only refused to address what they consider to be a hypothetical question.

I'm not sure you can blame the 'little englanders' for this because they want to save the economy over £100Bn a year and engage with the rest of the world where 90% of global growth is predicted to come from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiUkyAb2L7o

robertoegg

Archi_Bald wrote: »

For those interested in some facts regarding the many myths spread by the Out campaigners: http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/category/mythbusters/

Anyone interested or involved in science and research might also find the "Scientists for EU" website of interest: http://scientistsforeu.uk/

Finally, The Economist was running an article this week
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21674698-there-growing-risk-britain-will-leave-european-union-it-needs-be-countered?fsrc=scn%2Ftw%2Fte%2Fpe%2Fed%2Fthereluctanteuropean that pretty comprehensibly dismantled the economic arguments for Brexit.

The debate will remain heated but hopefully people can find it in themselves to base their positions on verifiable facts rather than on party-political agendas and emotion.

It would seem that the young people of the UK, who would have the longer impact of such a ridiculous move, have voted clearly and with their facts.

It is sadly the older generation who believe the hyperbole, read the Daily Mail or The Express, are institutionally racist as per their up-bringing and unfortunately are more inclined to vote.

Not content with having the most expensive benefit to the country (a pension that is above the average working person's earnings), free bus passes, free fuel, free tv licenses, years of above average boom in wages and house prices, they now see fit to vote out of the biggest free market we have, dooming the future generations (again!). Bravo. :T

Time and again, the future of this country (and others) are ignored (just look at the crazy u-turns on renewable energy to see the disdain the young people are treated to). No political policies are aimed at attracting the youth.

Things need to change. For starters, those who have retired should automatically be refused a vote on the EU, you have already had a vote and you voted in. With politics, a vote from someone under 25 should count for two. Or one+half. Anything to get a better balance.

Nick_C

robertoegg wrote: »

It is sadly the older generation who believe the hyperbole, read the Daily Mail or The Express, are institutionally racist as per their up-bringing and unfortunately are more inclined to vote.

You may as well say the under 25s who read the Grauniad should be denied a vote because they have been brain washed, lack life experience, and cannot form a proper independent judgement on such issues.

robertoegg wrote: »

Not content with having the most expensive benefit to the country (a pension that is above the average working person's earnings) ...

The basic State Pension is currently £116 a week, and is taxable.
Minimum wage for someone over 21 working 36 hours a week is £241 a week.

A couple on Pension Credit will have £231 a week plus housing costs. A young couple not working can get up to £500 a week.

robertoegg wrote: »

free bus passes, free fuel, free tv licenses, years of above average boom in wages and house prices, they now see fit to vote out of the biggest free market we have, dooming the future generations (again!). Bravo. :T

I'm a pensioner. I don't get any of these benefits. I saw my income cut in real terms by about 15% during my last 5 years at work.

You need to be 75 before you get the free TV license.

Unless you are over 80, the Winter Fuel Allowance is a maximum of £200. Free fuel? Do you know how much it costs to heat a home? I can only assume you are not responsible for paying fuel bills. Part of the inexperience of the young.

However, I do believe that the benefits you mention here should not be given to better off pensioners - the ones who don't qualify for Pension Credit.

robertoegg wrote: »

Time and again, the future of this country (and others) are ignored (just look at the crazy u-turns on renewable energy to see the disdain the young people are treated to). No political policies are aimed at attracting the youth.

The Conservatives are concerned about the future of this country. This is why they are dealing with the terrible debt that Labour have saddled us with. That is why they are reforming pensions. That is why they are reforming welfare and making work pay.

robertoegg wrote: »

Things need to change. For starters, those who have retired should automatically be refused a vote on the EU, you have already had a vote and you voted in. With politics, a vote from someone under 25 should count for two. Or one+half. Anything to get a better balance.

I have retired. I was not old enough to vote in the 1975 referendum.

But I think there is a case for voting reform. I like your radical suggestion that some people's votes are worth more than others.

I like the idea of turning the old rallying cry "no taxation without representation" on its head.

Far too many young people pay no tax and contribute nothing to our country. Yet they can vote, and have a say in how taxpayers' money is spent. I think if you don't pay Income Tax, you shouldn't have a vote.

robertoegg

1 - you assume I'm young. I'm not.
2 - The biggest benefit this country has to pay is the pension. Other benefits have faced cuts, but the state pension has been “triple-locked” so that it reflects higher inflation, earnings growth or 2.5 per cent.
3 - Some figures: 47% of UK benefit spending goes on state pensions of £74.22bn a year, more than the £48.2bn the UK spends on servicing its debt. It's followed by housing benefit of £16.94bn (+5.2%) and Disability living allowance of £12.57bn (+3.3%). Jobseekers' allowance is actually one of the smaller benefits - £4.91bn in 2011-12. So perhaps your dig at the far too many young (what a surprise, a pensioner confirming my hyperbole comment!) should be adjusted.
4 - the majority of pensioners own their property outright. The majority of people aged 25-34 don't. And that is plummeting. Some more figures: People aged between 25 and 34 are now more likely to be renting privately than buying their own home. The proportion of young people in this age group who are privately renting has more than doubled since 2003/04, with almost half - 48 per cent - of all households where people are aged 25 to 34 renting from private landlords in 2013/14, according to the data (The English Housing Survey, published by the Department for Communities and Local Government). Over the same 10 years, owner-occupation levels in this age group have fallen from 59 per cent to 36 per cent.
5 - "It costs me £800 a year for my electricity and gas. £200 would be very nice thank you very much. Oh that's right, you're more likely to be in a large property than me. You poor thing." I could say, and so could thousands of other 40-something year-olds.
6 - The conservatives had a very clear message to give very simply about the left's inability to manage a budget. The figures don't back this up entirely, but fair play to them, they used the message well and the left was a bloody shambles of an opposition. No serious economist now actually believes austerity is the best path to managing the deficit. But it sounds good to those old and uninformed who like to believe, oh, here we go again, believe the hyperbole of The Daily Mail et al.

Damn right there is a case for voting reform. We have 1 in 4 people who voted the conservatives into a majority! How can that be representative? 5 million people voted for UKIP but not one seat was gained. And before you jump on me for being a UKIP supporter, I am not. But, a system that doesn't take into account that many votes (more than the whole of Scotland, where 59 seats were decided!) is broken.

So back to my points on this poll. There is a clear demarcation between young and old, and in and out. It is unfair that the old should have as much say in a once in a lifetime decision that will severely impact on the young's lives as they struggle to cover more nhs bills from the old, more pension bills from the old, more housing shortage etc.

My wife was studying to be a doctor at the age of 28. You think she shouldn't have a vote?

PurpleGirlie

What I don't see here is any definition of what this 'better deal with the the EU' Mr Cameron wants to 're-negotiate' actually is... currently, I don't see that the UK has much of a voice in the EU any more - these days, it feels less like being part of a union of equals, more like being treated as the petulant younger sibling of a 'Greater Germany'! What kind of difference does our Prime Minister think he can effect, that are truly in this great nation's best interests, that would be 'enough' for him? It seems to me, his current plan is to stamp his feet and threaten the other member states with us leaving (ie withdraw 'his'/the UK taxpayer's cash 'subscription' charges) unless he gets his own way - whatever that amounts to in his head - but I worry that will backfire, as he clearly wants us to stay, and I envisage that 'good deal' he thinks he can 'influence' will turn out to be of no real long-term benefit, but 'bigged up' to UK voters instead of one hell of an embarrassing climb-down... THAT's what worries me - if that was the hidden reality of any 'deal' that convinces voters to stay, we could end up the laughing stock of the EU, weakening any so-called influence even further, perhaps GLOBALLY! And if we have no choice *but* to leave, just to save face - well, Mr Cameron, that would be one *more* pre-election promise you really wished you'd kept your big mouth shut about... and one we might ALL come to regret...!

robertoegg

PurpleGirlie wrote: »

What I don't see here is any definition of what this 'better deal with the the EU' Mr Cameron wants to 're-negotiate' actually is... currently, I don't see that the UK has much of a voice in the EU any more - these days, it feels less like being part of a union of equals, more like being treated as the petulant younger sibling of a 'Greater Germany'! What kind of difference does our Prime Minister think he can effect, that are truly in this great nation's best interests, that would be 'enough' for him? It seems to me, his current plan is to stamp his feet and threaten the other member states with us leaving (ie withdraw 'his'/the UK taxpayer's cash 'subscription' charges) unless he gets his own way - whatever that amounts to in his head - but I worry that will backfire, as he clearly wants us to stay, and I envisage that 'good deal' he thinks he can 'influence' will turn out to be of no real long-term benefit, but 'bigged up' to UK voters instead of one hell of an embarrassing climb-down... THAT's what worries me - if that was the hidden reality of any 'deal' that convinces voters to stay, we could end up the laughing stock of the EU, weakening any so-called influence even further, perhaps GLOBALLY! And if we have no choice *but* to leave, just to save face - well, Mr Cameron, that would be one *more* pre-election promise you really wished you'd kept your big mouth shut about... and one we might ALL come to regret...!

Agree - Cameron is doing us no favours. I work with Europeans day in day out; they require a different style of engagement to our more direct and bullish ways in the UK. He needs to clearly define the changes he wants to see and the benefits all countries will see from these changes (without resorting to beating his chest and trying to flex his guns!). He needs some advisers who know how to engage, and, he needs to listen to them.

That said, there are only a few things that are not favourable to the UK and it is wholly balanced out, and more, by the enormous benefit we gain from being part of such a large market.

OnceTwiceThreeLotsOfSB

I want to stay in.


I can't take the "we need control of this country back in our hands!!!" argument from the anti-EU camp seriously, as if we are all forced to wear federation-sanctioned EU uniforms and have Angela Merkel thanking us for being good citizens on giant screens situated around the country. As Tropez said, I don't feel there's anything I want to do that I can't because of our EU membership. I'm not an EU expert, but then most of the UK electorate aren't however I do know that we have European elections. Yes, there are bodies such as the EU commission but insinuating that the UK public have no say whatsoever in the goings on in Brussels is an unconvincing argument for leaving at best, and scaremongering at worst.


I don't really care about the business arguments. Big business has too much of an influence in this country as it is. I don't envisage that changing whether we stay in or leave.


The positives of EU membership for me are free movement and a formal framework for us to work together with our friends in Europe. I don't like the jingoistic rhetoric from certain political parties about making Britain great again, as if we always know best and can't learn anything from Europe. It simply comes across as an old-fashioned outlook, so it's not surprising to see older people being the most in favour of leaving.

Zoggie

Robertoegg,
What is it you have against pensioners? I am one who has worked for almost 50yrs, the last 20, 12hr days and nights on 4 shift, paid my NI and Taxes which has contributed to my State Pension. As for your assumption that pensioners are well cared for lets show some facts in my case. The pension I receive is 75% less that I was earning when I retired. My earnings when I retired were less than the new maximum benifits cap, yet I still have all the same bills to pay as when I was working. I do not qualify for pension credits.
You pay £800 on your energy per annum, Mine is approx £1200 per annum, (the £200 heating allowance is very helpful). The Triple Lock giving a rise of 2.5% = £2.90pw, not even enough for a pint of beer.
Yes I do own my own house which in the early years I was paying over 8% interest on the mortgage which at one stage reached 16% when I had two young children to bring up, there were many times when my wife and I did not eat so the children could. I was made redundant on a few occasions but was prepared and did any job I could find (no job seekers allowance in those days). I was also caught in the Endowment trap and had to use my savings to payoff the mortgage. (no government help there)
The state pension in the UK is one of the lowest in the EU and as I'm retired I do not qualify for the new flat rate pension of £158pw next year. I am fortunate to have a small private pension which helps keep my head above water so to say but should I need to go into care I will have to sell my house to pay for it (it is not a mansion as you seem to think pensioners live in), if I were in rented acommodation with little or no assets then the council would pay for it.
It is not the pensioners fault that home ownership is falling out of the reach of younger people, when I purchased my home at the age of 29yrs. the deposit was 5% not 25% or more than it is today and there were more houses being built then plus they did not sell off the council housing. (blame the banks and institutions for that when they lent 120% of value) but I still had to get the company I worked for to say I earn't more than I did.
All my working life I have worked hard to provide my family with a safe and stable life and all I want now is to enjoy what time I have left. Why someone like you should want to deny me of this is beyound beleif.

robertoegg

Zoggie wrote: »

Robertoegg,

All my working life I have worked hard to provide my family with a safe and stable life and all I want now is to enjoy what time I have left. Why someone like you should want to deny me of this is beyound beleif.

What a ridiculous comment. I began to write another response but I've deleted it. I'm not carrying on a discussion with someone who trots out emotional bull like that.