MoneySaving Poll: Should the UK stay in the EU?

Archi_Bald

Stonker wrote: »

BTW, apparently the CBI receives about £160k a year funding from the EU

I haven't analysed how the CBI gets funded, but so what if some of their money comes from an EU fund? Do the Out campaigns run on fresh air? Of course everyone has got their interests in mind, that's perfectly normal.

I personally do value the opinion of a body whose members have been providing tens of thousands of jobs for decades a lot more than the opinion of politically motivated interest groups.

marleyboy

How many Polls does MSE actually need about stay\leaving the EU? Maybe the team don't check the countless polls we have had on here about it.

Stonker

Archi_Bald wrote: »

I haven't analysed how the CBI gets funded, but so what if some of their money comes from an EU fund? Do the Out campaigns run on fresh air? Of course everyone has got their interests in mind, that's perfectly normal.

I personally do value the opinion of a body whose members have been providing tens of thousands of jobs for decades a lot more than the opinion of politically motivated interest groups.

They have a voice and it is only fair that it should be heard. It is important that people understand where their loyalties lie though. However, As I said before, most that want to leave the EU want to leave the political union, they want their country back, they want British law to be dictated in Britain. They don't want to live in a political area that straddles England and France, they don't want the EU dictating to their local council and they don't want to be forced eventually to adopt the €. The EU is NOT the single market. It is however the EU that has so far dictated strings attached to the single market that are unacceptable to those that want to leave.

Here is a video with contributions from both sides of the fence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqJ4W9LfuqE

Tropez

Stonker wrote: »

They have a voice and it is only fair that it should be heard. It is important that people understand where their loyalties lie though. However, As I said before, most that want to leave the EU want to leave the political union, they want their country back, they want British law to be dictated in Britain. They don't want to live in a political area that straddles England and France, they don't want the EU dictating to their local council and they don't want to be forced eventually to adopt the €. The EU is NOT the single market. It is however the EU that has so far dictated strings attached to the single market that are unacceptable to those that want to leave.

Here is a video with contributions from both sides of the fence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqJ4W9LfuqE

Personally (and this is, of course, just my position) but I don't see any reason that British laws by Britain as being an argument that would sway me into wanting to leave the EU. We have plenty of laws, introduced by British governments for Britain, that I disagree with, in some cases quite strongly. On the other hand, there's quite a lot of things the EU has done that I do agree with - not all of it, but that's why I'd favour remaining part of the EU and trying to work on improving it.

I might feel differently if I felt it possible to connect with the UK political system, but as it stands I don't. We have a government with more than half the seats in Parliament that didn't get half of the vote. We have a substantial number of seats in this country that are routinely held by the same party, no matter what (my constituency for example has only ever returned an MP from the same party since its creation) and so were I to vote for a different party, my vote would be completely worthless.

And since neither the Conservatives nor the Labour Party have done much to appeal to me, my beliefs, my points of view etc. and both have implemented laws that I disagree with, some of which I oppose on a moral level, there's actual very little tangible benefit to leaving the EU on the basis of getting "our country" back. I also find the notion of "our country" a bit alien to me. People express their concerns over the destruction of British culture, and I honestly don't really know what British culture is supposed to be. I can't see anything that I would want to do that I am unable to do because of membership of the EU.

Hedgehog99

Archi_Bald wrote: »

Trouble is that Vote To Leave are offering just as their name says: Leave. What they don't say is what would come after the "leave". Why aren't they spelling out what people would be voting for?

The fact that Vote To Leave are not responding to the various after-Brexit economic scenarios that the CBI have discussed in their report speaks volumes.

We don't know what voting to remain will mean in the future either. We know what Europe is at the moment, but what's next? A United States of Europe? The UK adopting the Euro? European police & army (with abolition of countries' own)?

Stonker

Tropez, there seem to be a lot of people who seem to want to get rid of the car because it has a puncture. My argument isn't about whether or not I agree with the laws, it's who makes them. We can change the government, we can't change the EU

Tropez

Stonker wrote: »

Tropez, there seem to be a lot of people who seem to want to get rid of the car because it has a puncture. My argument isn't about whether or not I agree with the laws, it's who makes them. We can change the government, we can't change the EU

Can we change the government though? You might be able to. If you live where I live, there's only one party winning that seat so I can't do anything about the British government. I could move, but that's a faff and I've only just moved as it is.

Until some form of proportional representation is brought in (and I'm aware PR isn't without its faults, such as being responsible for some truly bonkers coalitions in some countries), I don't really feel I have any power to change the government.

I don't really care who makes the law. I care about whether I agree with it or not. The EU rules on airlines, mobile charges, consumer rights, worker's rights, environment, right to study in Europe, EHIC, right to retire in Europe, privacy etc. are all things that I agree with. I do take some issue with the fishing and common agricultural policy but it's only been around for a few decades. Too much to expect it to be perfect.

The UK, on the other hand, hasn't done a good job of convincing me that there are benefits to it being solely responsible for all of its own laws, and it is still responsible for the majority of them.

Stonker

My constituency is the same but my point is that it is actually within the power of the people to change the parliamentary system. In the EU commission, there are no political parties, there's no opposition, it is virtually a dictatorship with no real democracy. If you are happy with the plan to create a suprastate and understand the risks of being forced to adopt the €, having the UK government either effectively a local council or even closed down all together then each to their own I guess. Personally, I see the Lisbon Treaty as a threat to our very existence as a sovereign state and they are even planning to go beyond that. Oh, and it's been estimates to cost the economy £185Bn a year.

Here is another video about what is going on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO4Ayo4mYZg

Archi_Bald

Hedgehog99 wrote: »

We don't know what voting to remain will mean in the future either. We know what Europe is at the moment, but what's next? A United States of Europe? The UK adopting the Euro? European police & army (with abolition of countries' own)?

Of course nobody can look into the future But we do know exactly what the existing laws and regulations around the EU are. The UK cannot, for instance, be forced to adopt the Euro. Nor can a whole host of other things be implemented without the agreement of all member states. This includes a european police and army, and any Treaty change, which would be required for the creation of a United States of Europe.

On the other hand, leaving the EU will be full of unknowns. The Out campaigns aren't even telling us what economic model we'd be voting for.

Stonker

The Lisbon Treaty is quite explicit in that the 'Union' will adopt a single currency being the €. I accept we had an opt out against the Maastricht Treaty but I can find no confirmation of that in the Lisbon Treaty. When you consider the self amending nature of the Lisbon Treaty together with the Five Presidents Report, it is difficult to imagine us avoiding joining Eurozone for too much longer.

As far as the economic model is concerned, it's not something that the Leave campaigns can dictate as it's down to whatever is agreed as an exit agreement under article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. My suspicion is that the gov't will only treat the referendum as advisory if the leave vote prevails anyway and will treat that as a mandate to negotiate further. On that basis, I would urge anybody that favours Desperate Dave's attempts to renegotiate to vote to leave.