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Career advice required – Law – I have never got off the ground - Long post
Law_girl
Posts: 27 Forumite
I tried to start my career almost 12 years ago and am still trying to get a foot on the bottom rung of the ladder.
I know there is a glut of law graduates and not enough jobs. Where I work now as an administrator, I have seen the selection process when they get applications for advertised roles and know it can be quite arbitrary.
Please could I have some advice?
1. I took ‘O’ Levels (my school abroad offered those as it was a higher standard apparently) – and got good results, including 5 A grades.
2. For A levels I got 2 A grades, a B and an E.
3. I went to a decent Uni - the law department this year ranked 35/100 (Cambridge at the top, Sunderland at the bottom).
4. I got a 2.1.
5. Academic prize in final year for good achievement.
6. Extracurriculars;
a. I campaigned and was elected onto the student union,
b. volunteered for Samaritans,
c. and did lots of other extra curricular activities.
7. I also worked 20 hours per week while studying to support myself. Door to door sales, call centre, cleaning, au pair, waitress, bar tending, pot washer, care work.
a. Why so many? Agency work sending you to different things, different jobs during summer and Easter holidays as I went back to live with family.
8. I had an internship after Uni. I applied for a job there but did not get it.
but then that is when it all went pear shaped.
A. I needed a work permit to continue working after I finished my studies. The Home Office as it was then gave me a year by year visa which I had to reapply for each year. It cost several hundred pounds to renew each time (without any lawyers fees). On average they took eight months to return my documents to me after submission time. You are allowed to work while renewing, but many agencies wanted to see your physical passport and were not content with a Home Office letter, so I started to get gaps in my C.V.
Many people would work illegally, but due to my principles I never have. I know of some people who falsely applied for asylum but again my principles would never let me do this.
B. While I was waiting, I did Pitman qualifications in typing, office management and business accounts to hopefully make me more employable.
C. I then got into a relationship and had a child, that relationship broke down and I was left holding the baby and I had some pregnancy related health problems that took some time to resolve. More C.V gaps.
D. As I was not entitled to any benefits as a foreign national I was living with relatives and could not afford childcare for a job. During that time I did a correspondence diploma in Business law, again, to make myself more appealing.
E. I got my work permit then started with a company that dealt in international property. In the recession they folded and I was back to job hunting.
F. I did the Legal Practice Course hopefully to make myself more employable. I failed one module and resit and therefore the whole course. So I paid again to do the course and passed but with average grades. No distinctions.
G. I did at one point get a job in actual law! It was a paralegal in a law firm. The problem is that I fainted when dealing with evidence photos. It was during my probation and quite fairly they said this type of work is probably not for me. There are however many, many kinds of law that do not deal with gory images and I am looking for one of those.
I have been trying for 12 years to get a training contract. I have been applying for paralegal and legal secretary work at the same time. I have had very little success.
I am currently working as an entry level administrator (past three years - not a law firm) and while I am grateful to have a job I am bored and frustrated.
I would be happy with a job as a paralegal/legal secretary or legal researcher but there is nothing coming my way.
One thing I did notice last year is that I started getting interviews when I used my middle name (an English name) on CVs rather than my difficult to pronounce first name. I have had three interviews so far and shortlisted for one but no job offers.
FAQ –
Q – Try applying for more jobs!
A – I have applied for several hundred using online sites, the company’s own website, Law Gazette etc. To be honest it has become really disheartening. I tailor my application for each role but most times policy is to not even reply unless offering an interview.
Q- Use your contacts from work experience etc.
A – I did work experience at firms in Zimbabwe, and did not really keep in touch as I was studying in the UK and hoped to get a job here for a couple of years then go back. Then the situation got worse and worse and so it was not possible to go back.
Q- why don’t you go back to Zimbabwe and try there?
A – I have lived in the UK for my whole adult life and part of my childhood. My husband is British, and my life is here now.
Q- What about friends and people you studied with?
A – I am an introvert and have not kept in good contact with many people, maybe 2 or three. I have emailed a few people but have just got ‘I’ll keep an eye out for any openings where I work’ then silence really.
Q – have you tried an agency?
A – Yes, the admin job I have now is from an agency but it has nothing to do with law. I took it as I had been 18 months without a job and needed to pay the bills. I am signed up with four.
Q – Have you tried advertising yourself?
A – Yes, I put out a paid advert in a local paper and also Private Eye. (money I could not afford) and did not get a single reply.
Q – Stand with a billboard!
A – I have done door to door sales and can stand the heckling etc., but law is a conservative profession, so the whole ‘standing with a billboard thing’ would be unlikely to be as positively received as it would for e.g. a media studies graduate.
Q – Have you tried the Law society ethnic minority lawyers division?
A – Yes, and I didn’t even get a reply to my email apart from the automated ‘we have received your message’ thing and to be honest that quite disheartened me even more.
Q- Is there something wrong with your C.V?
A – I have had employment agencies look at it and they told me it was fine.
Q – Do you smell, have something that puts people off you?
A – With most of the jobs I have not even got to the interview stage. Where I have worked I have got on very well with people. I am personable, have good grooming and hygiene habits, no tattoos, no six inch nails etc. just a black skirt and white top, pearl earrings and necklace usually. I actually did a little modelling for a local paper when I finished school so am not hideous to look at (I know anyone can be a 'model' these days! - case in point!).
Q - Why don’t you take an internship to gain experience and make contacts in the industry?
A - I would love to be able to take an unpaid internship but I have the following expenses.
WEEKLY
1. In the family I am responsible for groceries while husband pays rent, utilities and car related expenses apart from petrol - £50 groceries & packed lunch (lots of lentils & jacket potatoes)
2. £80 per week for season ticket into London – from Watford (I wrote to local firms but got no answers)
3. Childcare - Assuming working 9 – 5, I would need £85 (£35 am + £50 pm)
4. For my daughter to continue having swimming & music lessons £40
5. Petrol for school run & clubs £10
Grand total = £265 per week i.e. £1060 or £740/ month if local
That amount is basically an entry level salary.
I would love to hear of any ideas which could help me.
I know there is a glut of law graduates and not enough jobs. Where I work now as an administrator, I have seen the selection process when they get applications for advertised roles and know it can be quite arbitrary.
Please could I have some advice?
1. I took ‘O’ Levels (my school abroad offered those as it was a higher standard apparently) – and got good results, including 5 A grades.
2. For A levels I got 2 A grades, a B and an E.
3. I went to a decent Uni - the law department this year ranked 35/100 (Cambridge at the top, Sunderland at the bottom).
4. I got a 2.1.
5. Academic prize in final year for good achievement.
6. Extracurriculars;
a. I campaigned and was elected onto the student union,
b. volunteered for Samaritans,
c. and did lots of other extra curricular activities.
7. I also worked 20 hours per week while studying to support myself. Door to door sales, call centre, cleaning, au pair, waitress, bar tending, pot washer, care work.
a. Why so many? Agency work sending you to different things, different jobs during summer and Easter holidays as I went back to live with family.
8. I had an internship after Uni. I applied for a job there but did not get it.
but then that is when it all went pear shaped.
A. I needed a work permit to continue working after I finished my studies. The Home Office as it was then gave me a year by year visa which I had to reapply for each year. It cost several hundred pounds to renew each time (without any lawyers fees). On average they took eight months to return my documents to me after submission time. You are allowed to work while renewing, but many agencies wanted to see your physical passport and were not content with a Home Office letter, so I started to get gaps in my C.V.
Many people would work illegally, but due to my principles I never have. I know of some people who falsely applied for asylum but again my principles would never let me do this.
B. While I was waiting, I did Pitman qualifications in typing, office management and business accounts to hopefully make me more employable.
C. I then got into a relationship and had a child, that relationship broke down and I was left holding the baby and I had some pregnancy related health problems that took some time to resolve. More C.V gaps.
D. As I was not entitled to any benefits as a foreign national I was living with relatives and could not afford childcare for a job. During that time I did a correspondence diploma in Business law, again, to make myself more appealing.
E. I got my work permit then started with a company that dealt in international property. In the recession they folded and I was back to job hunting.
F. I did the Legal Practice Course hopefully to make myself more employable. I failed one module and resit and therefore the whole course. So I paid again to do the course and passed but with average grades. No distinctions.
G. I did at one point get a job in actual law! It was a paralegal in a law firm. The problem is that I fainted when dealing with evidence photos. It was during my probation and quite fairly they said this type of work is probably not for me. There are however many, many kinds of law that do not deal with gory images and I am looking for one of those.
I have been trying for 12 years to get a training contract. I have been applying for paralegal and legal secretary work at the same time. I have had very little success.
I am currently working as an entry level administrator (past three years - not a law firm) and while I am grateful to have a job I am bored and frustrated.
I would be happy with a job as a paralegal/legal secretary or legal researcher but there is nothing coming my way.
One thing I did notice last year is that I started getting interviews when I used my middle name (an English name) on CVs rather than my difficult to pronounce first name. I have had three interviews so far and shortlisted for one but no job offers.
FAQ –
Q – Try applying for more jobs!
A – I have applied for several hundred using online sites, the company’s own website, Law Gazette etc. To be honest it has become really disheartening. I tailor my application for each role but most times policy is to not even reply unless offering an interview.
Q- Use your contacts from work experience etc.
A – I did work experience at firms in Zimbabwe, and did not really keep in touch as I was studying in the UK and hoped to get a job here for a couple of years then go back. Then the situation got worse and worse and so it was not possible to go back.
Q- why don’t you go back to Zimbabwe and try there?
A – I have lived in the UK for my whole adult life and part of my childhood. My husband is British, and my life is here now.
Q- What about friends and people you studied with?
A – I am an introvert and have not kept in good contact with many people, maybe 2 or three. I have emailed a few people but have just got ‘I’ll keep an eye out for any openings where I work’ then silence really.
Q – have you tried an agency?
A – Yes, the admin job I have now is from an agency but it has nothing to do with law. I took it as I had been 18 months without a job and needed to pay the bills. I am signed up with four.
Q – Have you tried advertising yourself?
A – Yes, I put out a paid advert in a local paper and also Private Eye. (money I could not afford) and did not get a single reply.
Q – Stand with a billboard!
A – I have done door to door sales and can stand the heckling etc., but law is a conservative profession, so the whole ‘standing with a billboard thing’ would be unlikely to be as positively received as it would for e.g. a media studies graduate.
Q – Have you tried the Law society ethnic minority lawyers division?
A – Yes, and I didn’t even get a reply to my email apart from the automated ‘we have received your message’ thing and to be honest that quite disheartened me even more.
Q- Is there something wrong with your C.V?
A – I have had employment agencies look at it and they told me it was fine.
Q – Do you smell, have something that puts people off you?
A – With most of the jobs I have not even got to the interview stage. Where I have worked I have got on very well with people. I am personable, have good grooming and hygiene habits, no tattoos, no six inch nails etc. just a black skirt and white top, pearl earrings and necklace usually. I actually did a little modelling for a local paper when I finished school so am not hideous to look at (I know anyone can be a 'model' these days! - case in point!).
Q - Why don’t you take an internship to gain experience and make contacts in the industry?
A - I would love to be able to take an unpaid internship but I have the following expenses.
WEEKLY
1. In the family I am responsible for groceries while husband pays rent, utilities and car related expenses apart from petrol - £50 groceries & packed lunch (lots of lentils & jacket potatoes)
2. £80 per week for season ticket into London – from Watford (I wrote to local firms but got no answers)
3. Childcare - Assuming working 9 – 5, I would need £85 (£35 am + £50 pm)
4. For my daughter to continue having swimming & music lessons £40
5. Petrol for school run & clubs £10
Grand total = £265 per week i.e. £1060 or £740/ month if local
That amount is basically an entry level salary.
I would love to hear of any ideas which could help me.
0
Comments
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*Lots* of irrelevant stuff in your post - if you want to work in law you're going to need to learn to filter.
I'm sorry to say that I don't think you stand a chance of getting a training contract. Normally I'd say to find something to make you stand out from the other candidates, but at the moment you wouldn't even be an average candidate - you have no recent relevant experience and you didn't pass the LPC first time round. Added to that you have a child and have responsibilities - whilst that shouldn't be a reason not to employ you, it is a factor.
There are lots of other avenues open to you with a law degree, you need to explore these.0 -
Thanks for your candid reply. The reason I included a lot of detail, rather than produce a skeleton post,was in order to preempt certain questions and to paint a complete picture.
I am applying for contracts, which as you say is a long shot, BUT I can not even get anything as a paralegal,legal secretary, law clerk, legal researcher, corporate secretarial assistant, patent assistant, magistrates administrator, conveyancing assistant... you get the picture.
I am simply looking for help or advice in getting a job which makes use of my qualifications, even if it is not a training contract.0 -
The jobs you are applying for are the same ones everyone else wanting a TC will be going for. Think about the more generalist skills you have - what about the civil service or local government, or the many admin roles in the NHS? How about accountancy, there is more law involved than you would expect?0
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Do you honestly (deep down) think Law is the right path for you?
Your other thread from today is asking for advice about an unpaid invoice... that's basic stuff (even considering the particular scenario of the sick child).
You have average grades, struggled with the LPC, had an internship but failed to secure the job at the end and are now going up against bright young graduates who have fresh attitudes and no personal baggage.... sorry for the blunt summary.
You chose to take time out to have a relationship and a child (despite the insecurity of your residency status) - that was a life choice which you should have known would change the course of your career and limit your options.
People who gain the most success in the legal field tend to have good (not average) grades, are motivated enough to put their personal lives on hold for the first few years and use networking and contacts to build their reach.
Interpersonal skills are valued - you say you are an introvert.
Plus, in all my years of dealing with some pretty nasty images, I have never known anyone to faint when viewing them... that tends to only happen in the movies.
My advice? Find something more suited to your personality and accept your current position rather than trying to make excuses for it.:hello:0 -
Have you explored the CILEX route?0
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BTW – I’ve taken a half day in order to go job hunting – in case anyone is concerned I am posting from work!
Thank you again all for your candour in responding.
As you are probably aware, Law has many facets.Tiddlywinks wrote: »Do you honestly (deep down) think Law is the right path for you?
No – I am never going to be pounding my fist in a law court – which is why I went down the solicitor route. I love being able to approach a tangled situation, identify the key issues and provide someone with a solution, so yes, Law is for me.
My question was about what is appropriate and tactful in that specific scenario, not ‘how to get an invoice paid’. I think the mere fact that I could even identify that there is a potentially indelicate situation and then to be able to seek advice is a positive attribute.Tiddlywinks wrote: »Your other thread from today is asking for advice about an unpaid invoice... that's basic stuff (even considering the particular scenario of the sick child).
5As, 3Bs and a C for GCSE, and AABE for A level are not terrible grades. Not stellar but they are good grades. Yes, the LPC was difficult but, not to make excuses, I was experiencing difficult circumstances and I got there in the end. At Uni I was awarded a prize for outstanding academic performance, while working and having a social life so I think on the purely academic/intellectual side that demonstrates that I am capable.Tiddlywinks wrote: »You have average grades, struggled with the LPC,
I am aware that choices have consequences. I also know that I have worked hard and am able to perform well in a job.Tiddlywinks wrote: »You chose to take time out to have a relationship and a child (despite the insecurity of your residency status) - that was a life choice which you should have known would change the course of your career and limit your options.
Yes, I should have made better use of networking and that is a mistake I made. I did not want to feel like I was ‘using’ people and was reluctant to ask for opportunities. I am an introvert in that I prefer my own company. That does not mean I sit in a corner not making eye contact. I know how to ‘work a room’ at a cocktail party, recount anecdotes and be amusing. I can be charming and know how to behave and am friendly and professional.Tiddlywinks wrote: »[…] use networking and contacts to build their reach.
Interpersonal skills are valued - you say you are an introvert.
In all your years I am sure you also know that there are many kinds of people in the world and as many different responses. I did not drop onto the ground, but was sitting at a desk and had to put my head down on it as I felt faint.Tiddlywinks wrote: »Plus, in all my years of dealing with some pretty nasty images, I have never known anyone to faint when viewing them... that tends to only happen in the movies.Tiddlywinks wrote: »… had an internship but failed to secure the job at the end.The internship did not ‘have a job at the end’. A position was advertised in the firm but it ended up going to someone who had previously been in that role at the firm years ago. In addition there were a group of us, so in that situation we all ‘failed to secure the job at the end’ but surely that is not a reason to curl up and write off all your career aspirations.
I am sorry if it comes across as ‘trying to make excuses’. I was hoping to lay out the facts in order to be given relevant and helpful advice.Tiddlywinks wrote: »rather than trying to make excuses for it.
Do you have any concrete suggestions (for my personality as you see it) as I may not have thought of them?Tiddlywinks wrote: »My advice? Find something more suited to your personality
If you mean that after getting A levels, a degree, postgraduate qualifications and a diploma I should be happy with an entry level admin position then no, I will politely decline that suggestion.Tiddlywinks wrote: »My advice? … accept your current position ...
I did enquire, but you can only qualify this way if you have not done the LPC yet. I did think about this many years ago and decided against it, but did not realise it would be so difficult to secure a training contract and now it is too late. As they say hindsight is 20/20.Have you explored the CILEX route?
Again, thank you for being frank. Does anything come to mind?Yes. I think it's time for the OP to move on and explore other career options.0 -
You insist that "law is for you" despite the fact that twelve years experience says otherwise. There is little point in re-hashing whether or not your long ago grades were good, bad or indifferent. If you could have made it, you would have made, and it doesn't now matter why you didn't. Continuing to hanker after an unattainable goal is what is now holding you back. If you are going to enter into employment with the attitude that this job is just a filler until you attain your dream, you will probably never get past entry level jobs, because you are applying yourself to a dream and not to reality.
You say that you "love being able to approach a tangled situation, identify the key issues and provide someone with a solution" - you need to apply that skill to yourself. There is really no point asking people what you should do as a career, if you can't do law. You need to accept that the law isn't happening and decide what you are going to do about that. You can sit and dream about careers whilst in entry level jobs until you retire - only you can decide that isn't what you are going to do about it. There is, after all, a point to entry level jobs. They are supposed to be a foot in the door of career opportunities. How many of those opportunities are you letting slip by, in waiting for a perfect role that isn't coming?0 -
Just had a few additional thoughts:I did at one point get a job in actual law! It was a paralegal in a law firm. The problem is that I fainted when dealing with evidence photos. It was during my probation and quite fairly they said this type of work is probably not for me.
When I commented about the above from your first post, you responded:I did not drop onto the ground, but was sitting at a desk and had to put my head down on it as I felt faint.
So - you didn't faint, you just felt light-headed?
I am not trying to be pedantic here but this story has shifted somewhat.
So, your employer then had cause to say you were not right for that 'type of work'. What did they give as the reason for letting you go?
It's hard to believe that one episode of resting your head on a desk whilst feeling unwell would be cause to dismiss.
I'm not pointing this out to be unkind but to suggest that you need to review this incident and ask yourself honestly why this job (in as you say 'actual law') didn't work out for you.I have applied for several hundred using online sites, the company’s own website, Law Gazette etc. To be honest it has become really disheartening.
You are in a pool of applicants from all walks of life - some newly graduated and with the ability to be more flexible in where they live, the hours they work etc... so, 'several hundred' failed applications in the last decade is not really that shocking.Q – Have you tried the Law society ethnic minority lawyers division?
A – Yes, and I didn’t even get a reply to my email apart from the automated ‘we have received your message’ thing and to be honest that quite disheartened me even more.
You sent one email, received no response so gave up. Is that really the required action of a legal professional? To give up after one attempt?Q- Is there something wrong with your C.V?
A – I have had employment agencies look at it and they told me it was fine.
It is not necessarily the appearance and layout, accuracy of grammar etc that's at issue... unfortunately, it may be simply that your lack of experience may be the hindrance.I am never going to be pounding my fist in a law court – which is why I went down the solicitor route. I love being able to approach a tangled situation, identify the key issues and provide someone with a solution, so yes, Law is for me.
Try volunteering for CAB, Asylum charities, pressure groups etc so that you can get practical experience of research, working with clients etc.
That should get you a reference and up to date experience for your CV.:hello:0
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