DLA to PIP Entitlement Question

Bezee_Em

I was on DLA for high rate mobility and care but this has now stopped as I got 0 points on the assessment for the changeover to PIP. Been getting DLA for 9 years and during that time I think I was reviewed 3 times.

I am shocked at getting 0 points since I have depression and anxiety and also bipolar which was diagnosed in 2011. I barely go out alone these days. I went to the medical for PIP because a good friend took me. I have done a mandatory reconsideration but they did not change their mind and now I am preparing to appeal at tribunal.

I have support from one friend who is writing a letter to help with my claim. I also have letters from GP and mental health team. I do not engage well with the mental health team now because after years of drugs and failed therapies I just cannot seem to get better. I even underwent a course of ECT last year, and even that did not help with my depressive episodes.

I am going to be in hardship now without DLA, as I cannot pay my carer for help, nor the cleaner who comes weekly to help me. I also pay bedroom tax for a spare room. I feel too ill to even think of moving to a smaller place, besides my home is where I feel safe and I do not really want to move.

Can anyone help give advice about tribunal proceedings for PIP. How long can it take? I know I can attend but I do not think I want to be at it. This shock decision has had a knock on effect already on my state of mind. I just feel like giving up and not fighting anymore.

pmlindyloo

Bezee_Em wrote: »

I was on DLA for high rate mobility and care but this has now stopped as I got 0 points on the assessment for the changeover to PIP. Been getting DLA for 9 years and during that time I think I was reviewed 3 times.

I am shocked at getting 0 points since I have depression and anxiety and also bipolar which was diagnosed in 2011. I barely go out alone these days. I went to the medical for PIP because a good friend took me. I have done a mandatory reconsideration but they did not change their mind and now I am preparing to appeal at tribunal.

I have support from one friend who is writing a letter to help with my claim. I also have letters from GP and mental health team. I do not engage well with the mental health team now because after years of drugs and failed therapies I just cannot seem to get better. I even underwent a course of ECT last year, and even that did not help with my depressive episodes.

I am going to be in hardship now without DLA, as I cannot pay my carer for help, nor the cleaner who comes weekly to help me. I also pay bedroom tax for a spare room. I feel too ill to even think of moving to a smaller place, besides my home is where I feel safe and I do not really want to move.

Can anyone help give advice about tribunal proceedings for PIP. How long can it take? I know I can attend but I do not think I want to be at it. This shock decision has had a knock on effect already on my state of mind. I just feel like giving up and not fighting anymore.

First of all I suggest that you get some professional help with your appeal. Try CAB or a welfare advisor. This will take a weight off your mind knowing that you have someone on your side. They can also help you by going though the statement of reasons and seeing where you need to challenge their findings.

As regards your 'bedroom tax' you should try for a Discretionary Housing Payment to 'top up' your rent. The form can be got from your council. Ask CAB/welfare advisor to help you complete it.

Statistics show that attending a tribunal in person is more positive as regards the outcome than not attending. You can take a friend with you.

BlueEyedGirl

I second what post #2 said. Get some help from the CAB or Welfare Rights. And most certainly ask the council about a Discretionary Housing Payment to help top up your housing benefit. Could your friend help you get this help. Some Welfare Rights organisations can often do home visits.

controversy

Bezee_Em wrote: »

I was on DLA for high rate mobility and care but this has now stopped as I got 0 points on the assessment for the changeover to PIP. Been getting DLA for 9 years and during that time I think I was reviewed 3 times.

I am shocked at getting 0 points since I have depression and anxiety and also bipolar which was diagnosed in 2011. I barely go out alone these days. I went to the medical for PIP because a good friend took me. I have done a mandatory reconsideration but they did not change their mind and now I am preparing to appeal at tribunal.

I have support from one friend who is writing a letter to help with my claim. I also have letters from GP and mental health team. I do not engage well with the mental health team now because after years of drugs and failed therapies I just cannot seem to get better. I even underwent a course of ECT last year, and even that did not help with my depressive episodes.

I am going to be in hardship now without DLA, as I cannot pay my carer for help, nor the cleaner who comes weekly to help me. I also pay bedroom tax for a spare room. I feel too ill to even think of moving to a smaller place, besides my home is where I feel safe and I do not really want to move.

Can anyone help give advice about tribunal proceedings for PIP. How long can it take? I know I can attend but I do not think I want to be at it. This shock decision has had a knock on effect already on my state of mind. I just feel like giving up and not fighting anymore.

This is a DWP tactic to get you to surrender your DLA/PIP. They use it now and again on people who they think aren't educated enough on the system.

No offence.

So basically when the PIP assessor makes the decisions they may have been told or pressured to give 20% of their applicants 0 points by the DWP.

The DWP also has the final say on decisions so if they decide to give you 0 points on a descriptor they can do so without any medical knowledge what so ever.

But now your at the stage where there will be a Doctor present at your Tribunal as well as a Judge. Also the DWP don't really attend these Tribunals. They say they do just to try and scare you away.

It is very important the you mail all of your medical evidence directly to the Tribunal Doctor as well as the DWP. When it gets sent to the DWP the Doctor will not see it because the last thing the DWP want is you to get your benefit.

You also need to bring someone with you. I would try and bring 2 people with you. The people who know you the most. If you can get a neighbor or friend to come with you as well as a family member you have 2 witnesses which can speak up for you.

Who is the Doctor going to believe? You and 2 witnesses or the DWP who is currently under investigation by the UN for a breach of disability human rights?

Get yourself onto YourAble.com and ask for Flymo. That is probably one of the best people to talk to on the subject.

Here is a video from the Ministry of Justice. The DWP have had this video removed dozens of times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbWXG6Ho4i8

Also read this forum post.

http://mylegal.proboards.com/thread/609?page=1#1421

And here is YourAble forum.

http://www.youreable.com/

And Flymos PIP post.

http://www.youreable.com/forums/showthread.php/6904-PIP-success-story-and-some-reflections

If you follow all these points the DWP will be raging up and down because your be like a marine geared with all your weaponry at the Tribunal. Your make Ian Duncan Smith cry!

........ Oh and let me be clear. The Doctor makes the decision not the DWP!

Indie_Kid

You have to remember that the criteria for PIP and DLA are different. During the time that you're waiting for the appeal, you need to gather as much evidence as you can. The evidence must be relevant to the PIP descriptors.

To claim PIP, you need help 50% of the time. The help you need must be reasonable. If you can't complete a task in a reasonable time frame (twice the length of time it takes a none disabled person) in a safe and reliable manner, you can't, according to the guidelines, do the task and score the relevant points for it.

rogerblack

Bezee_Em wrote: »

I was on DLA for high rate mobility and care but this has now stopped as I got 0 points on the assessment for the changeover to PIP. Been getting DLA for 9 years and during that time I think I was reviewed 3 times.

If you want specific help, you will need to explain why you were getting HRM for DLA.
Was this solely due to anxiety and bipolar, or do you also have physical issues?

While both mental and physical issues can lead to PIP mobility, the entitlement differs.

Does the decision letter say anything about your issues at all, or is it entirely silent?

Bezee_Em

rogerblack wrote: »

If you want specific help, you will need to explain why you were getting HRM for DLA.
Was this solely due to anxiety and bipolar, or do you also have physical issues?

While both mental and physical issues can lead to PIP mobility, the entitlement differs.

Does the decision letter say anything about your issues at all, or is it entirely silent?

I have a genetic condition called Trimethylaminuria (TMAU) which was confirmed 15 years ago. This has contributed to my depression and anxiety problems. I have been bullied my entire life because of TMAU. I also have Rheumatoid Arthritis which is worse in my feet, ankles and wrists, I was diagnosed with this 18 years ago. My mobility is pretty poor but because I can use crutches to get around it seems I score 0 points despite being in immense pain and unable to walk far.

I will refer to the letter tomorrow and get back to you as I am currently staying with a friend for the weekend as I could not get support last night from the crisis team.

Bezee_Em

Thank you to others who replied. I will try to get an appointment with the CAB for some help and advice. I shall also phone the council tomorrow about the discretionary housing payment.

I submitted evidence in the form of letters from my GP and Consultants but it seems these have been ignored by the powers that be.

rogerblack

Bezee_Em wrote: »

I have a genetic condition called Trimethylaminuria (TMAU) which was confirmed 15 years ago. This has contributed to my depression and anxiety problems. I have been bullied my entire life because of TMAU. I also have Rheumatoid Arthritis which is worse in my feet, ankles and wrists, I was diagnosed with this 18 years ago. My mobility is pretty poor but because I can use crutches to get around it seems I score 0 points despite being in immense pain and unable to walk far.

I will refer to the letter tomorrow and get back to you as I am currently staying with a friend for the weekend as I could not get support last night from the crisis team.

Can you stand and then move - perhaps with an aid between 50 and 200m, as often as is reasonably required, at more than half the speed of a normal person, most days?

If not, then you would be entitled to some points.
Pain is not - in and of itself - mentioned in the criteria.
If however pain leads to slowing down, or being unable to reliably do the task - it counts.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/benefits_e/benefits_sick_or_disabled_people_and_carers_ew/benefits_personal_independence_payment_e/benefits_the_pip_assessment_e/pip_activities_descriptors_and_points.htm

is useful.
You cannot do a thing, for the purposes of PIP, unless you can do it:

• safely
• to an acceptable standard
• repeatedly
• in a reasonable time period.

On more than half the days.


Things you can only do slowly, unreliably or occasionally do not count as being able to do them.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/449043/pip-assessment-guide.pdf This is the PIP assessment guide - however it is important to understand that this is not the law.
It is the law as the DWP might wish it to be, interpreted through a dark lens.

For example - skimming.
3.2.13 - on risks and safety.
'When considering if an activity can be done safely, it is important to consider the risk of a serious adverse effect occuring. However the risk that a serious event may occur is not enough, it has to be likely to occur'.

This is plainly ridiculous.
The legislation says 'safely' - it does not go into details of how the risk should be computed.

The above definition clearly fails to capture what the word 'safely' means.
For example - if I am only 1% likely to break an arm over the course of 20 years when having a bath (say) - it is at least arguable that I can reasonably be said to be able to do it safely.

If however, I have a 5% chance of dying every time I do an activity, I think very few tribunals would accept that I can do this 'safely' - even though the guidance above states I can.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/377/regulation/4 is the actual legislation it's based on.
'(4) In this regulation—

(a)“safely” means in a manner unlikely to cause harm to C or to another person, either during or after completion of the activity;'

You can see where they're coming from.
If you flip that over, you get that to be unsafe 'means in a manner likely to cause harm'.

The problem is that you can't read particular words in isolation, you have to consider them in context.

'unlikely to cause harm' - read as a whole - clearly does not mean 'with a greater than 50% chance of causing harm.'
Because what harm means is not defined.

It needs to be decided on the basis of the whole phrase.
Someone who 51% of the time they get out of a daily bath, has a rash for half an hour is clearly likely to be able to do it safely.
Someone who 1% of the time they get out of a daily bath, dies, is clearly not safe.

To sum up - it's worth asking if you have specific questions about descriptors that on any plausible reading could apply to you - even if the DWP position is they do not.
Unless the DWP has the backing of caselaw in their guidance, the guidance may be pessimistic.

Sorry for length.

Bezee_Em

Thank you @rogerblack

On a good day I rely on crutches and can walk with them some distance although I am in pain. On an extremely bad day, winters are the worst for me I use a walker with a seat so frequently sit down between steps to rest. I tend to use a mobility scooter for shopping in town as I can hire one fairly cheap, but I only go shopping in town when I have a friend for support.

Thanks for the links you posted.

I have managed to get an appointment with someone at the CAB later this week. They were very helpful when I spoke to them on the phone.

I also spoke with the council and they are sending the form out for me to apply for a discretionary housing payment.

rogerblack

Bezee_Em wrote: »

Thank you @rogerblack

On a good day I rely on crutches and can walk with them some distance although I am in pain. On an extremely bad day, winters are the worst for me I use a walker with a seat so frequently sit down between steps to rest..

To reiterate then - any walking you can do at less than half the speed of a normal person is disregarded.

Also, 'on a good day' is misleading.

The test is 'on most days during the assessment period (3 months in the past and likely condition 9 months in the future) can you do the thing as and when required.
While 'sitting down between steps' does not explicitly mean you can't do any of the mobility tasks, it would be extremely hard to argue in most cases that you can, because that would then slow you below half the speed of a normal person.

Good luck.