Boundary issue

Doozergirl

kaya wrote: »

had it been the first time they had done something like that i would agree it is terrible advice, but if you read the op properly this isn't their first offence, give em an inch and they will take a yard seems applicable

I've not read that. I've read that they've neglected to communicate on something before but not mentioned what. Happy to be pointed back to what they did.

I've read someone else talking like they are the OP and an amateur psychoanalyst.

cattermole

Ehwhat wrote: »

The fence is to my right and was originally put in its current location by a previous owner of my house. This was also before the current neighbour. The current neighbour has recently renewed it, but to the same line as the previous fence. The sellers information form completed by the immediately preceding owner of my house states that they maintained all of the fencing.

Your information above is useful but not conclusive.

You need to check what the title plan shows or covenants for your property.

If the fence was your's (regardless whoever first put the fence in i.e. the previous owner of your property) even if your neighbor replaced it that does not make it his fence. If he replaced it without your consent and it is your fence then he is also in the wrong.

Do you have the title plan ? You say you can remember what was on the property information form. You can get a copy of the title plan for a very small fee on line from the Land Registry, however you should have had a copy when you purchased the property, given to you by your Solicitor asking you to confirm that was your understanding of the property and it's boundaries etc.

On the title plan there should be a T mark on your side of the fence if it is your fence and your responsibility to maintain the boundary. If the T is on the otherside i.e. your neighbors then it is his fence and he has responsibility to maintain the boundary (however that does not include going over the boundary line).

In most streets the fence each house is responsible for is usually the same for example does the neighbor on the other side of your property if there is one maintain that boundary fence?

If there is no T on either side and nothing in any covenant, then it will probably be a party fence which means you are both responsible for maintaining it and it is jointly owned.

However any of the 3 scenarios above do not mean it should be inside your boundary. What it could also mean is that the original owner of your property placed a fence inside the boundary because he knew he didn't own the boundary/fence and the original fence was scruffy or something and the previous neighbor did not want to replace it.

Depending on how long ago that happened and because nothing was said when your current neighbor replaced the fence you may have lost that section of land, if the previous owner of your house established a new boundary years ago by fencing on his land at the time. Please note this would only apply if it was over a certain time period ago and if this boundary was not your responsibility.

I think your best course of action is to find out who's fence it is (regardless of who put it there as I've outlined above)

and

check whether or not what he is planning to do is a permitted develop or not before you decide what to do next.

princeofpounds

I do recommend the gardenlaw forums for this kind of thing, you will probably get a more informative answer than you will here (there do appear to have been a few red herrings on this thread).


There are actually a few interlocking issues here, and you have to be prepared for the fact that some of them may not fall the way you want them to.


The first thing is that boundary marks on the title plans are not exact. Even the thickness of the line probably corresponds to around five inches on the ground.


Unless it is something called a determined boundary (i.e. measured), then boundaries are usually defined by on-the-ground features, which the title plan serves to identify.


Boundaries can and do move. The classic case is of a river bed, but they can also move because - more relevant to your case - someone puts in a new boundary marker in the wrong position and it becomes the accepted boundary over time.


You might not be stuck in that position - it depends how many years it has been there, and if there are any other boundary markers that might be relevant.


So basically you need to decide if you are going to contest for the boundary to be restored, or if you have to accept the boundary and concentrate instead on stopping any overhang and conflict of the building with your property (something which is totally inacceptable).


If an informal approach to get it resolved doesn't work, then you probably have to take legal advice as you might be looking at an injunction to get it removed.


The issue of planning permission is a separate issue. Specifically you probably want to look at the permitted development rules; I am afraid I'm not up to date on them. They are slightly different for outbuildings and structures close to the boundary than for normal house extensions.


And the ownership of the fence itself as a structure is a third issue. Deeds can talk about the ownership of a boundary and the obligation to maintain a fence, but that is not the same thing as owning the fence materials themselves. The fence is owned by whoever put it in; you aren't entirely clear but you seem to say your neighbour replaced it, so it may well be their fence.

Doozergirl

Cattermole, the title register may mark who is responsible for maintaining the boundary but ownership of any fence is always that of the people that erected it. The responsibilty to mark the boundary could be with a piece of string, stones on the floor, paint, fence, wall, whatever.

A fence and a boundary are different things though. Responsibility for the boundary is not ownership of a fence.

Everyone is entitled to place a fence on their own side of the boundary and that fence is owned by whoever paid for it. There can be two parallel fences, if wanted.

Alfrescodave

Make sure that you have lots of pictures as the set up is now - just in case the legal profession has to be later involved (hopefully not).


Good to let your neighbour see you taking the pics.

Land_Registry

Based on your OP only it reads as if you are doing the right thing in discussing it with your neighbour and the builder.

The details provided by the 'deeds' and any previous information provided by the previous owners to you and your neighbour will help understand what has happened before and how you arrived at the position prior to the recent change.

The position of a boundary line and who is responsible for the physical feature itself are, as posted, separate matters. As you now appreciate fences/boundaries can be moved over time and/or replaced. So it is important that all parties understand the available details also appreciate that such matters are best resolved between themselves.

The planning aspect is something to also be aware of as you mention 9ft in height - another piece of detail/information for both to consider but quite separate from the deeds/legal boundary details.

Hopefully you will post again after the meeting with the neighbour/builder and we will have a better idea as to where things stand and what mutual understanding exists.

cattermole

Doozergirl wrote: »

Cattermole, the title register may mark who is responsible for maintaining the boundary but ownership of any fence is always that of the people that erected it. The responsibilty to mark the boundary could be with a piece of string, stones on the floor, paint, fence, wall, whatever.

A fence and a boundary are different things though. Responsibility for the boundary is not ownership of a fence.

Everyone is entitled to place a fence on their own side of the boundary and that fence is owned by whoever paid for it. There can be two parallel fences, if wanted.

Yes that is what I was also saying re placing a fence inside the boundary or existing fence, sorry if it wasn't clear.

However if the fence is inside your boundary on your land regardless of who errected/paid for it because it is on your land, it is not so clear.

Ehwhat

It was a fairly interesting meeting. Both builder and neighbour blaming each other for the structure, planning issues hadn't been considered and it. The result is that the framework is now gone and the neighbour and I are having ongoing discussions regarding the fence.

Thank you one and all for your advice and comments.
Ehwhat

Land_Registry

Discussing and agreeing a way forward is invariably the best option - any dispute can be costly, stressful and harmful on any future dealings with the property and of course as far as being good neighbours. Everything is always subjective but looks like the chat worked and being proactive in resolving what happens next is a big plus.