Original cheques

SeniorProbateManager

Does anyone know how long banks are legally required to hold original cheques?

I believe a cheque was fraudulently used to take money from the account of a deceased person very shortly after he died and before the bank was aware of his death, but I am unlikely to be able to prove it without involving a handwriting expert who would need to see the original cheque. However, Lloyds have told me they only hold them for 5 days and after that they just keep an electronic image.

Zanderman

SeniorProbateManager wrote: »

Does anyone know how long banks are legally required to hold original cheques?

I believe a cheque was fraudulently used to take money from the account of a deceased person very shortly after he died and before the bank was aware of his death, but I am unlikely to be able to prove it without involving a handwriting expert who would need to see the original cheque. However, Lloyds have told me they only hold them for 5 days and after that they just keep an electronic image.

Not sure I understand why you need to know about the legal requirement - as it's not really relevant is it?

If they only hold the cheques for 5 days the original has gone, and there's nothing you can do about that.

But if they have an 'electronic image' - presumably a scan - why can't you just use that? If it's a scan it should have the handwriting on it just like the original.

agrinnall

I'm actually a bit surprised that Lloyds would only keep the paper for such a short time, but I'd imagine they do so because the legislation regards the image as having the same legal status, so as Zanderman says, use that.

dzug1

I doubt if there's any specific requirement to keep cheques - only to keep adequate records. What's adequate is debatable of course.


But ICBW


I'm sure a handwriting expert can tell a lot more from an original than a scan - he can tell things from the flow of the ink for example.


The bank is likely to have checked the signature against its records (again scans) when processing the cheque. If it's going to take a handwriting expert to say it was (more likely might have been) forged then I doubt if there's any potential for the bank to be liable there.


I suspect OP is on a loser regardless - let's hope he isn't

alanq

They could look at the date on the cheque. A fraudster is probably smart enough to date a cheque to before death even if banking it shortly afterwards.But perhaps not.

chris_m

Zanderman wrote: »

But if they have an 'electronic image' - presumably a scan - why can't you just use that? If it's a scan it should have the handwriting on it just like the original.

A scan will only have a reasonable approximation of a 2-dimensional copy of the writing.

It won't necessarily have all of the fading away when the pen was lifted and it definitely won't have any indentations in the paper showing the varying of pressure placed on the pen at different points in the writing - both things that can be of enormous use to a handwriting expert in determining if the writing was or could have been (or could not have been) performed by a particular person.

SeniorProbateManager

The reason I'm asking about how long banks legally have to hold original cheques is that I'm not sure whether Lloyds are telling me the truth or whether they are just trying to wriggle out of any responsibility or can't be bothered looking out the cheques.

They have already told me they cannot compare the signature on the (copy) cheque as they do not hold any specimen of the account holder's signature. If that is true, then things have certainly changed since I worked for a bank in the 1980s (and it would also mean they could not have checked the signature when the cheque was processed)!

You can understand why I am beginning to feel I am being fobbed off. The burden of proof that the signature is fake is on me, and without the original cheque I don't stand a chance.

ChiefGrasscutter

Signatures will not be checked unless its a large cheque.

The following happened a while back to an association I'm involved in: not with LLoyds though.
People on the committee changed - so need to change authorised signatories
Bank mandate change forms filled in sent off etc
However - the Bank never actually changed mandate
New signatories thinking they were authorised signed cheques.
These were all processed and cleared all OK - everyone is happy....
This went on for years until one day a large cheque was issued and the bank actually stopped to compare the sig's - only to find totally different people to what they were expecting................
So the cheque was blocked by the bank - and a major row developed.

PS
The only way out of this scenario as the payment was needed urgently was to find the original bank approved signatories who were still living locally and get them to sign a replacement cheque even though they were no longer on the committee/had anything to do with the association.

dzug1

ChiefGrasscutter wrote: »

Signatures will not be checked unless its a large cheque.

.

True - but it must have been a large cheque for OP to be so concerned over it

chris_m

ChiefGrasscutter wrote: »

Signatures will not be checked unless its a large cheque.

The following happened a while back to an association I'm involved in: not with LLoyds though.
People on the committee changed - so need to change authorised signatories
Bank mandate change forms filled in sent off etc
However - the Bank never actually changed mandate
New signatories thinking they were authorised signed cheques.
These were all processed and cleared all OK - everyone is happy....
This went on for years until one day a large cheque was issued and the bank actually stopped to compare the sig's - only to find totally different people to what they were expecting................
So the cheque was blocked by the bank - and a major row developed.

I hope your next move was to change banks.

We had an interesting one when I was a Scout leader, except in that case the bank did act on the revised mandate.
Our Troop was going on summer camp with another Troop and they had a bank account specifically for camps. They suggested that my assistant and I were added to the camp account signatories to give more flexibility in drawing funds when different leaders were off organising activities at various times, giving us achoice of 2 out of 5 signatories instead of 2 out of 3. We signed the mandate form and off it went to the bank.

Then the leader of the other troop tried to draw cash, on a cheque signed by him and his assistant - and it was rejected.

He went ape in the bank (even I found that embarrassing, not surprising that the poor cashier did) until they produced the mandate form which should have added us as signatories.
Despite it being for the camp account only, the muppet had decided to add to the instructions but worded it badly, putting "These new signatories only for the camp account" - and the bank, understandably IMO, interpreted that as "remove all previous signatories and add these new ones", which is what they did.
If he'd left the form as printed, they'd have simply added two more to the signatories list for just that account and left the other three on it as before, which was what was required - but he always was a pedantic s*d. I don't think he ever learned, even from that experience

jonesMUFCforever

OP are / were you the executor of the deceased.
If not the bank will not talk to you - if the police are not interested forget it.

If you are - the bank may well hold them for 6years - you can ask for the original cheque to be sent to you - they will if they can find it - if they can't then a digital copy is the best you will get.