Anyone point getting an electric car if you do low mileage?

scaredofdebt

Agreed, in 10 years or so running an EV will probably cost the same as running a petrol/diesel does today, due to tax.

They'll probably put it on VED, £1k a year for EVs or something like that, completely unfair on those doing a trip to the shops once a week. The problem with taxing electricity is you'd have to charge everyone even those without an EV, I suspect there will be a lot more charging points that could be taxed but if most people charge at night at home how do you tax that?

Regards the half hour delay on the longer journey it might not be as bad as that, the car won't be going from 0% charge for a start, I'll ask if I can keep the car for a couple of days and see what it's like in real life.

I have to fill it with diesel every week and that's a 10-15 minute job in any case, sometimes more if I have to queue for a pump.

If I wait a couple of years I suspect range will increase and charging times reduce.

FreddieFrugal

scaredofdebt wrote: »

The problem with taxing electricity is you'd have to charge everyone even those without an EV, I suspect there will be a lot more charging points that could be taxed but if most people charge at night at home how do you tax that?

If the levy was only charged on electricity used at charging points, then it would only affect high mileage users who needed to regularly recharge away from home.

I'm sure they will make even more rapid charging batteries and chargers, however to begin with, they will be expensive and so only companies that are able to make a profit on the investment would be able to buy that technology, not the average motorist.

Once the price of that technology is reduced, so that anyone can charge quickly (within a couple minutes even) from home or anywhere. Then they'll have to maybe have smart meters that can detect when a vehicle is being charged and you're charged a different rate at home then for your mains electricity.

That way people without an EV would be unaffected.

It seems miserly, but it's surely more fair to tax people based on their use of the car rather than just on owning one. There will always be some kind of cost involved

BeenThroughItAll

All of the speculation about battery technology is fine, but the future of non-FF vehicles is likely to be hydrogen fuel-cells.


Had a little go in a Toyota Mirai at Millbrook last week. Lovely car, nice inside, beautifully screwed together, very handsome, can be filled with fuel quickly, and 250 mile nominal range - and nothing but water out the back.

dannyrst

BeenThroughItAll wrote: »

All of the speculation about battery technology is fine, but the future of non-FF vehicles is likely to be hydrogen fuel-cells.


Had a little go in a Toyota Mirai at Millbrook last week. Lovely car, nice inside, beautifully screwed together, very handsome, can be filled with fuel quickly, and 250 mile nominal range - and nothing but water out the back.

Is it? (genuine question)

I don't actively seek out news on the future power plants of cars but I do regularly see advances being made by Tesla on battery power, consumption and size. I can't say I've seen anything about hydrogen fuel other than a small section on Top Gear many years ago.

BeenThroughItAll

dannyrst wrote: »

Is it? (genuine question)

I don't actively seek out news on the future power plants of cars but I do regularly see advances being made by Tesla on battery power, consumption and size. I can't say I've seen anything about hydrogen fuel other than a small section on Top Gear many years ago.

Personally, I think so. That is also the view of a lot of the OEM R&D people I spoke to at the same event.


The future appears to consist of three streams. ULEV fossil fuelled (for certain purposes - road haulage for example) being one; a second being relatively low-cost battery EVs (which will also likely form part of a wider power-ecosystem - used as storage for excess power when it's cheap, which can then be used to power homes at peak times when it's expensive); the third being hydrogen-fuelled vehicles - they're likely to be more for the 'family car' or 'large car' market.


So, presently (barring secret research/unknown new technology) it appears in 20 years we'll see a lot of small BEVs in cities, Hydrogen fuelled vehicles on motorways and trunk routes, and ULEVs dragging freight and trailers around.

ElefantEd

It's true you have to plan journeys to an extent. However, firstly it is rare to go down to (almost) no charge on ordinary journeys, so you always in practice can go another 20 miles, say, if you have to. And with our home charging point (installed for nothing, paid for by the government), which delivers juice at 30Amps, you can get an additional 15% charge in less than half an hour. So realistically shortish extra journeys undertaken at short notice are not a problem. It's true that you can't leap into your chariot and drive hundreds of miles without stopping to see a dying grandmother, and planning is most certainly necessary, but it becomes second nature after a short time.

The Leaf has a nominal quoted range of 120 miles; personally I reckon 85 is more realistic if you drive at normal speeds (60/70mph on national speed limit roads) and aim to arrive with a margin for error in the battery. But it is easy to increase your range dramatically simply by slowing down.

Hydrogen fuel is an interesting option, but obviously there are huge safety issues as achieving a reasonable energy density must require high pressure storage, not great for objects which travel at high velocities and occasionally crash. Some years ago I saw someone demonstrating a Hydrogen fuel cell, but it used a quantity of expensive catalyst (which itself was energy-inefficient to produce) to get a smooth burn, so it didn't seem like a great option then. Hopefully tech has moved on. Being able to use renewable energy to produce fuel from water would solve a lot of problems, to be sure!

gzoom

Hydrogen is waste of time and money.

The Mirai is almost a big/heavy as the Tesla Model S, costs £60K+, and Toyota still cannot mass produce the fuel cell technology. You can go and buy a Tesla Model S today for £50K, it will give you almost the same range as the Mirai but is alot quicker and practical.

The Mirai may be quicker to refuel, but there are hardly any hydrogen fuel stations in the UK - These are complicated £500,000+ installations, not simple 'pumps' that you can just stick on to every petrol station forecourt, where as a Tesla you can plug into any 3 pin socket if need, but most people will be able to get a home charger fitted for £300-400, that can pretty much fill the battery over night whilst you sleep.

By the time Toyota works out how to mass produce fuel cells, Tesla / VW/ Nissan /GM will all be offering an battery EV that can do 200 miles in real life.

If you believe Porsche, they even reckon they can get the battery recharging time down to 15 minutes. Why waste electricity to produce hydrogen when you can just stick that electricity into a battery and use it straight away??

....So what exactly is the point of the Mirai???

Richard53

Serious question: a lot of people mention 'free' charging points. As I believe that nothing in life is truly free (well, nothing concerned with motoring, anyway), who is paying for the 'free' electricity at the 'free' charging points? If it's an employer offering it as a benefit, or a commercial organisation offering it as an inducement to visit and spend money, I have no problem with that. If it's public money, I am paying indirectly, and I am not impressed.

gzoom

^^ There is talk Ecotricity is due to start charging in 2016, but for now its free. I did 160 miles today in the Leaf, used x 2 rapid chargers. Total fuel costs to me - £2, for the initial overnight charge before setting off.

The boss of Welcome Break has got a Tesla is setting about installing Tesla Rapid chargers into service stations. There were 6 a Hopwood services on the M42, cannot wait till I have a car that can access them .

ElefantEd

I think it is currently (no pun intended) paid for by the government (via other organisations through grants in some cases) to encourage electric car usage. So, no it isn't ultimately free, just free to the user. Bear in mind that there are many things which are free or subsidised by the government on similar grounds before you get too hot and bothered about it.