Paypal chargeback, paypal charging £14 on top

juicyb

Reference the seller who was unsure if they have been charged the £14...
in one of the emails i received from paypal, i received the following line of info... this was the ONLY way they informed me of the £14... which does not tell you how much they are charging you... i would say the majority of people will miss it ...


"The disputed amount has now been debited from your PayPal account for the following reason(s):

This transaction was not marked as eligible for Seller Protection.
In addition, a chargeback fee has been debited from your PayPal account."


This was in amongst a full page email, then i went away to investigate and worked out it was £14 they took on top.

Thank you all for your input. I assume the answer to the original question of can we stop paypal doing this, was no, but if you spend time covering yourself in the first place, we may be able to avoid us being the victim?

All the suggestions for proof of postage are great but none feasible for me, at the moment i frank, bag and chuck into sorting office. no queueing, no checking parcels, no writing out individual pop's, we have posted over 200 large letters in a day before, to do this for 200 large letters would take too long. Time is money and i don't feel, as stated in a prior post, spending a few hours per week will cover the money lost from chargebacks.

Thanks all again

The_miser_2

I sell on E-bay, Preloved, Discogs, and several other sites, I only ever use Paypal.
I find that far from being a little sneaky as is the inference gained from this thread I find they are completely transparent about charge-backs and fees.:shocked:

The issue here is that as in many circumstances users of these ' services' forget they are in fact profit centred businesses (like banks & Insurance companies) and don't take time to read through the agreement before committing themselves.
If I told you that if Paypal thinks you owe them money they can snatch it straight out of what ever source you use to pay money in or out of Paypal :eek:

From User Agreement for PayPal Service
12.6 Errors. “....If a payment was made to your Funding Source by way of mistake, PayPal may correct the mistake by debiting or crediting (as the case may be) your appropriate Funding Source(s)....”

Or they can freeze the funds in your Paypal account at any time for up to 6 months, and take the right to transfer them into a 'reserve account' for longer? :mad:
Take a look at Section 10.2

Would that make you take half an hour out of your schedule to actually read the T&Cs before deciding if you want to continue using them:question:

By using Paypal you are giving them immense power over your finances, so it makes sense to take a good long look first at how to protect yourself from getting ripped off by fraudulent charge-backs, claims for unauthorised transactions, or paying Paypal fees you don't have to.

Paypal states that in order to qualify for seller protection you need to do just 1 thing :
Read and follow the guidelines in the User Agreement for PayPal Service Section 11 and pay particular attention to 11.6 Eligibility Requirements

Note that : “The transaction must be marked by PayPal as eligible or partially eligible for PayPal seller protection on your Account “Transaction Details” page. Because If it is marked eligible, protection for both Unauthorised Payments and Item Not Received will apply. If it is marked partially eligible, protection for only Item Not Received will apply."
(that's taken virtually word for word from Paypals seller protection guidelines).

So If a transaction is not marked as eligible for protection I refund the money via Paypal, and they waive the transaction fee.

About Proof of Delivery
I only use one form of postage, Royal mail signed for delivery, because :
(Again from Paypals seller protection guidelines) "To be eligible for Seller Protection, we require two types of evidence for protection eligibility. A digital or physical proof that the item was sent by the seller, and proof that the item was delivered by the delivery company."

The proof of postage has already been discussed on this thread, in my case I do everything at my local ( fortunately un-crowded) post office so get a certificate of posting for every item, scan & file them.
The proof of delivery is provided by The Royal mail on it's tracking site, every time an article is delivered I print a hard copy of the delivery certificate with its signature and attach it to the original certificate of posting and file these, so I have hard copies as well as electronic ones.

Sounds a little time consuming I know but I do this because If a company is taking / making payments on my behalf and has access to my money then I am making damned sure I know what I'm getting into before I start using them.

The Chargeback fee:
This is not a hidden charge it is clearly written in the user agreement Schedule 1. Table of Fees.
To make it easier to understand the fee is given in 26 currencies including the Euro, US dollar and GBP, so you should know if you are subjected to a charge-back from home or abroad what that fee will be.

Paypal writes alongside the table of charge-back fees :

Chargeback Fee

“To cover the cost of processing Chargebacks, PayPal assesses a settlement fee to sellers for credit and debit card payment chargebacks. (A chargeback may occur when a buyer rejects or reverses a charge on his or her card through the card issuer).”
This Fee does not apply if the transaction is covered by PayPal’s Seller Protection Programme.

Provided your goods or services are covered by the seller protection program (they list what isn't covered) and you follow their own guidelines If they then refuse to play ball, again in their own words.

14.5 Limitations of Liability.! We shall only be liable to you for loss or damage caused directly and reasonably foreseeable by our breach of this Agreement and our liability in these circumstances is limited as set out in the remainder of this section.
(Followed by the usual 'limitations' where they try and do the usual irrelevant wheedle out of paying damages if their breach of their own Agreement causes you to lose money).

Just read this as “ If you do all the things we ask and we still levy a chargeback on you and after you point this out we refuse to correct our mistake, then as we've already admitted liability take us to court, there is a good chance that as we have already admitted liability we'll end up paying your costs.”

For those who do mass postings and / or use franking, I know it's impossible to get every consignment signed for as proof of posting is not proof of delivery ( Paypal will not reimburse if your buyer claims 'Item Not Received' without proof of delivery and you will have to refund the buyer and pay a chargeback fee:wall:), but as basic protection you can filter out any orders to any buyer who is not eligible for seller protection and just refund them (make it clear in your advertising that you only sell to buyers who qualify).
The only other thing you can do is copy the high street retailers and factor in the chargeback (e-shoplifting) costs in your pricing and adjust accordingly (a case of the many paying for the crimes of the few:sad:), and keep a sharper eye on your accounting, if you've missed a few £14s going out of your account what else is going missing?

Make you wonder how we managed when the buyers used to just sent us postal orders or cash in envelopes :laugh:

ballisticbrian

The miser, you gave a very long winded post which appeared to justify costs as long as they appeared buried in reams of user agreement, when the actual issue is that the "fine" is being charged to a retailer for being the victim of fraud, and this you seemed to avoid mentioning.

custardy

ballisticbrian wrote: »

The miser, you gave a very long winded post which appeared to justify costs as long as they appeared buried in reams of user agreement, when the actual issue is that the "fine" is being charged to a retailer for being the victim of fraud, and this you seemed to avoid mentioning.

What fraud?

The_miser_2

The miser, you gave a very long winded post which appeared to justify costs as long as they appeared buried in reams of user agreement, when the actual issue is that the "fine" is being charged to a retailer for being the victim of fraud, and this you seemed to avoid mentioning.

I am not a Paypal fan and certainly have many issues with it mother, E-bay, but I knock them for what they do wrong, not because I haven't taken the correct easily followed steps to protect my business. Chargeback fees are only paid by sellers who fail to do this.

Fraud works both ways, thousands of false sales on e-bay with many genuine buyers left high and dry and out of pocket, our customers won't buy from us without protection.

Paypal insists on proof of postage and delivery as it protects both buyer and seller, the postal service is there so every seller can provide proof that the item posted has been delivered. Paypal tell us which customers we can sell to safely, the issue is not about Paypal 'fining' us, it's about us making excuses about why we cannot follow simple procedure to protect ourselves, then blaming Paypal for charging us fees we should have made ourselves aware of in the first place. Considering they give a comprehensive list of fees in an easy to find & easy to read format.

Paypal give clear and concise information on how to protect yourself against chargeback fees. If someone doesn't read the instruction manual and make themselves aware of how something works, they have no right to complain when they use it wrongly and things go wrong.


The user agreement is written in clear jargon free English it is also the instruction manual which tells you how to use Paypal properly and avoid the costs of the false buyer fraud you mentioned (false chargebacks).

Neither is this document buried as every time you click on a transaction to see details of the payments you receive, a blue hyperlink (More about Seller Protection) is one of the first things you see, that's because Paypal are drawing your attention to the User Agreement, not doing a shifty small print at the bottom of the page job. They even make it downloadable as a PDF file so you can print up a copy and stick it on your desk for reference.

If a seller can't be bothered to read and follow the 10 very short paragraphs of the seller protection programme then quite simply they are leaving themselves open to abuse by the plethora of scam artists that infest e-commerce.

As for not even looking at the schedule of fees, come on, if a seller can't be bothered to find out how much they are being charged for a companies services then they shouldn't be in business.


If you use Paypal you agree to their costs, that needs no justification, if you don't agree with them don't use Paypal, just as if a customer doesn't agree with the price you charge for your goods or services they will go elsewhere, its your choice.

ballisticbrian

As has been pointed out on this site time and time again, just because something in in the user terms and conditions doesn't make it justifiable or fair.

But you can quote user agreements all day long if it makes you feel better.

As for saying, shoplifting goes on in the real world so you should expect it online, that's the same logic as saying there are peadophiles in the real world so we should accept it online.

The_miser_2

We can have many a sensible conversation about the rights & wrongs of, or whether we consider some of the various fees & charges by these companies fair or not.

But this thread is about the Paypal chargeback fees and the procedure used to levy it.

Can you explain why Paypal asking you to protect your business by getting proof of delivery is unfair?

Can you explain why a seller who cannot be bothered to read and follow simple instructions aimed at protecting themselves from fraud, should complain when they fall victim?

Can you explain why a seller who cannot be bothered to read a virtually in your face schedule of fees should express surprise when those fees are levied?

Can you explain just why, after Paypal making it blindly obvious what to do to avoid chargebacks, even pre-vetting buyers so you know who its unsafe to sell to, they should not charge a fee for services to a buyer, it must by the law of evidence belive, because the seller had ignored all of the advice and safeguards put in place for their own protection?

Its so much easier to ignore the sellers responsibilities and just put the blame on a 'another big business' ripping us off.

Unlike motor insurance companies or banks, you are not forced to use Paypal, if you find something (in this case the chargeback fee) unacceptable then query it, if you don't like the answers or are not prepared to carry out the reasonable steps to avoid it then move on and choose other methods of payments for your goods or services.

Having said that I cannot believe that you deliberately wrote:

As for saying, shoplifting goes on in the real world so you should expect it online, that's the same logic as saying there are peadophiles in the real world so we should accept it online.

It is undisputed that shoplifting, theft & criminality are, unfortunately, a part of the world we live in, so yes of course we expect it to, and it does, happen online, do we ignore that reality or take steps to deal with it?

But to say that to be aware of this is the same as holding the belief that :
"There are peadophiles in the real world so we should ACCEPT it online"
Maybe if you said expect I would agree with you, but accept :rotfl:

I can only conclude that this was a typo on your part.