Anyone got a flow boiler or similar

Andreg

There's no loan with the Flow Freedom contract that I was discussing. And no legacy contract - the buyer has an option to continue getting the £80 rebate, that's all. Its just the same as investing in solar panels - you takes your chances on getting a house buyer who values them.

zeupater

Andreg wrote: »

There's no loan with the Flow Freedom contract that I was discussing. And no legacy contract - the buyer has an option to continue getting the £80 rebate, that's all. Its just the same as investing in solar panels - you takes your chances on getting a house buyer who values them.

Hi

The question would then revolve around the proportion of the sales which would be outright purchases vs financed ... at the price of this unit it'd probably be a little skewed towards 'financed' ...

Anyway, so you pay for the boiler and installation and for the first five years you get a fixed £80/month reduction in your energy bills, then, after that the monthly saving equates to FiT income+energy savings - that's how the freedom package seems to read ..... so, does this mean that the £80/month is net of the combined FiT payment, exported units and reduced energy import ? ..... in which case, does this not logically mean that you're being charged the applicable import rate for the energy which you've both generated and used on your own demand side of your smart-meter? ... does this not also mean that you're paying for the gas being used to produce the electricity (remember 1st law of thermodynamics) which you're also being charged for ... does this not mean that the spending power of the £80 rebate is, let's say, devalued a little ??

Unnecessarily complicated systems which are designed to be unnecessarily complicated have been designed that way for a necessary reason ...

HTH
Z

Andreg

I have just spoken to Flow. They are just taking details of potential customers at this stage, and will not be signing people up until November. (In my opinion they may well postpone that date!)

I also asked them whether you have to pay them for the electricity that your boiler generates from the gas that you are also paying them for. They couldn't answer on the phone but sent me a detailed 'Everything you need to know' document that says "the Flow boiler does use a bit more gas than a new, standard boiler. That’s because it burns a bit more relatively cheap gas to generate high value electricity. If you’re replacing a relatively new condensing boiler with a Flow boiler then you might expect to use about £50 more on gas every year."

That's £50 per year, not £50 per month, and seems reasonable based on the assumption that its generating 2000kwh per year, so not a big effect.

zeupater

Andreg wrote: »

I have just spoken to Flow. They are just taking details of potential customers at this stage, and will not be signing people up until November. (In my opinion they may well postpone that date!)

I also asked them whether you have to pay them for the electricity that your boiler generates from the gas that you are also paying them for. They couldn't answer on the phone but sent me a detailed 'Everything you need to know' document that says "the Flow boiler does use a bit more gas than a new, standard boiler. That’s because it burns a bit more relatively cheap gas to generate high value electricity. If you’re replacing a relatively new condensing boiler with a Flow boiler then you might expect to use about £50 more on gas every year."

That's £50 per year, not £50 per month, and seems reasonable based on the assumption that its generating 2000kwh per year, so not a big effect.

Hi

So, the generator actually forms a parasitic load. Who would have expected anything else if they had a basic grounding in science (Re: conservation of energy) ... power has to come from energy available somewhere, so the generator 'steals' it from the domestic heat demand.

Okay then, £50/year in gas would resolve to around 1250kWh (50/0.04) of supply.Odd, if that's based on 2000kWh of generation there must be noise or additional (undeliverable) energy loss somewhere, possibly a parasitic load within the generator or associated control ? .... anyway, considering that you specifically asked whether they would be charging you for the "electricity that your boiler generates from the gas that you are also paying them for", if they are, then the answer isn't based on £50/year for gas it's more like £330 (£50+electricity 14p/kWh?), bringing the net value of the £80/month rebate closer to £50 ... that's if you still believe the 2000kWh/year is correct ....

Are they getting back to you with a definitive answer ? - I'd be a little concerned if their helpline couldn't answer such a basic query ...

HTH
Z

pinnks

I just took a look at their website and as I read it, you sign over the FIT and pay them for whatever you have generated (must involve smart metering to account for self-consumption of generated leccy - wonder how that would work if you have solar and a CHP boiler?) and you pay for the extra gas to generate that electricity. So, if you have an annual use of, say, 3000kWk of leccy and produce 2000kWh, your leccy bill will still be for 3000, even if you have used all 2000 yourself. This will have cost you at least 2000kWh of gas to produce ignoring losses and inefficiency.

To me that looks as though they cash in on the FIT, on the electricity you generate at retail rates, not the wholesale rate they normally pay and you then buy a shed load more gas from them. I have not done the maths but it seems they are quids-in. No wonder they can rebate the cost of the boiler, especially as their TCR for leccy is higher than mine and their gas only 0.4p lower.

If you can afford the purchase, I would assume you would be better off going it alone (as is the case with solar) but even then the maths would require some close scrutiny - extra costs at gas rates for generation, what impact the system has when the central heating is not otherwise running and water potentially heated by solar, expected FIT and expected savings at leccy rates for self consumption - would you use all 2000kWh, or would there be wastage as there is with solar?

To be honest I am not sure the technology quite adds up yet but if it does get there, it would be a good way to fill the overnight lack of self-generated solar...

Andreg

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

So, the generator actually forms a parasitic load. Who would have expected anything else if they had a basic grounding in science (Re: conservation of energy) ... power has to come from energy available somewhere, so the generator 'steals' it from the domestic heat demand.

Okay then, £50/year in gas would resolve to around 1250kWh (50/0.04) of supply.Odd, if that's based on 2000kWh of generation there must be noise or additional (undeliverable) energy loss somewhere, possibly a parasitic load within the generator or associated control ? .... anyway, considering that you specifically asked whether they would be charging you for the "electricity that your boiler generates from the gas that you are also paying them for", if they are, then the answer isn't based on £50/year for gas it's more like £330 (£50+electricity 14p/kWh?), bringing the net value of the £80/month rebate closer to £50 ... that's if you still believe the 2000kWh/year is correct ....

Are they getting back to you with a definitive answer ? - I'd be a little concerned if their helpline couldn't answer such a basic query ...

HTH
Z

Zeupater, you disappoint me - I thought you were good at this sort of analysis. I'll have to explain it with an example:

Lets assume I use 28000kwh of gas currently, and 3000kwh of electricity. I am getting 90% efficiency from my gas boiler, so that provides me with 25200kwh of actual heating.

Now, assuming the Flow boiler generates 2000kwh of electricity, and also has a 90% total efficiency, in order to also provide me with my required 25200kwh of heating it will need to use 30,222kwh of gas (i.e. (25200+2000)/0.9). That's 2222kwh extra of gas (i.e. 30222 - 28000), which costs about £50 (i.e. 2222kwh * 2.4p/kwh)

Pinnks is right that you would still need to pay for the full 3000kwh of electricity. Their document seems to me quite definitive on that.

pinnks

Wow, where do you buy your gas? Most of us are at a TCR of 3.5p or more or about £80...

zeupater

Andreg wrote: »

Zeupater, you disappoint me - I thought you were good at this sort of analysis. I'll have to explain it with an example:

Lets assume I use 28000kwh of gas currently, and 3000kwh of electricity. I am getting 90% efficiency from my gas boiler, so that provides me with 25200kwh of actual heating.

Now, assuming the Flow boiler generates 2000kwh of electricity, and also has a 90% total efficiency, in order to also provide me with my required 25200kwh of heating it will need to use 30,222kwh of gas (i.e. (25200+2000)/0.9). That's 2222kwh extra of gas (i.e. 30222 - 28000), which costs about £50 (i.e. 2222kwh * 2.4p/kwh)

Pinnks is right that you would still need to pay for the full 3000kwh of electricity. Their document seems to me quite definitive on that.

Hi

You disagree that you're paying for the units you generate then ? ....

Is it a case that you're being charged around £50/year for the extra gas required to generate 2000kWh of electricity ? ... is it also the case that the energy you're generating on your system is being sold to you at full market rate (assuming 14p ?), therefore you're missing out on a bill reduction through self consumption of £280(2000x0.14) ... if so then simply adding the extra (£50) cost to the lost value of in-house self consumption (£280) gives the £330/year I raised, which equates to £27.50/month (330/12) - if we net this off the £80/month rebate, don't we get £52.50 (80-27.50)? ... how exactly does this substantially differ from the previous conclusion - i.e. " ... bringing the net value of the £80/month rebate closer to £50" ?

I agree with Pinnks' conclusions, probably because it agrees with my own .... sorry to disappoint, but you seem to agree with everything apart from the energy prices used in the calculations (14p electricity & 4p gas) and having to seriously increase the gas purchased by ~10MWh (28-18) above the minimum usage requirement, but then again, as I'm not interested in the offer as it stands I simply used representative values for the examples given and have no idea what the 5/10 year tied-in tariffs would be, just that they are claimed to be 'competitive' ....

Still disappointed ? ..... well, what about addressing the missing, pretty hefty, installation cost ?? ... is it really 'free' now ? - I would hope so because it's missing from their (/your?) own case study ( http://www.flowenergy.uk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/FLOW_CASE-STUDIES_JOHN.pdf ) and many other calculations, however, have a look at the Q&As ( http://www.flowenergy.uk.com/meet-flow/key-questions-answered/ ) and you'll find .... "In terms of the cost of installation, every home is different and we’ll provide a competitive personal quote following your free home survey" ... there must be some allowance made, so what is it to be ?, well 'popgoestheweasel', a one time poster, authoritatively made the statement ... "Outright it costs you £3675 + fitting £1800 (guide could be £1200 if simple adaptation)" ... which seems to expand on the original article which simply stated "... typical £1,200 to install ", with other articles stating ... "Buying the boiler outright costs £1,800 for installation" ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/energy-bills/11253072/Hi-tech-boiler-generates-500-free-electricity-would-it-work-for-you.html ) .... which seem to bracket the range perfectly ....

HTH
Z

Sterlingtimes

I have been reading with great interest.

How would this sit along side solar?

First, presumably permission would be required from the DNO in case the two systems export additively.

Second, when solar is exporting then the boiler generated electricity is also exporting.

Thirdly, the export smart meter which would measure solar is now measuring solar plus boiler. That creates a problem for those who are not on deemed export. Presumably, an additional export meter would be required.

zeupater

Sterlingtimes wrote: »

I have been reading with great interest.

How would this sit along side solar?

First, presumably permission would be required from the DNO in case the two systems export additively.

Second, when solar is exporting then the boiler generated electricity is also exporting.

Thirdly, the export smart meter which would measure solar is now measuring solar plus boiler. That creates a problem for those who are not on deemed export. Presumably, an additional export meter would be required.

Hi Sterling

As a micro-generation source I see CHP sitting alongside pv quite well. Considering that household heat demand is heavily weighted towards short daylight hours and that most households have a heating pattern which tends to favour early morning and late afternoon/evening, there's normally little opportunity for the generation from the two technologies to overlap, especially so at anywhere near maximum performance.

Looking at DNO guidance from WPD ... ( http://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/connections/Generation/Microgeneration_web.aspx ) ... it looks like any aggregated capacity over 16A would need to be notified, however, I can't really see any reasonable argument being made to support a connection refusal for 1kW nameplate capacity of CHP where <4kWp of pv is already installed, but it comes down the way that the individual DNOs and their employees see it. In a 'worst case' scenario involving 'bureaucratic jobsworths' there are always solutions which would cap the total export to the grid, as used overseas ...

Export metering ? ... well that's going to be an interesting issue for anyone with multiple micro-generation sources which the supply industry needs to address. Deemed payment was introduced to ensure that the energy sector opened-up access to having excess generation purchased and to encourage competition for renewable generation between FiT partners ... the problem is, the industry doesn't really like competition and micro-generation export isn't currently a large enough headache for them to worry about ...

HTH
Z