Anyone got a flow boiler or similar

pinnks

I too think Zeupater asks some very valid questions to challenge the advertising assertions. We have a 1980s 4 bed extended detached and get through about 11,000kWh of gas fore space heating and DHW. The maths and science don't seem quite right to me - and this is not a question of my views on build quality, new technology or Solar v other renewable.

zeupater

topicalcat wrote: »

Forums like this are designed for healthy sceptiscism, it is no bad thing. When the boiler is launched and there are independant reviews on it we will know for a start how well it is built and whether it does what is claimed on the tin. The £600 you quote for a boiler would only buy a bottom of the range model, i get the impresion that this is better than that. I would prefer therefore to see what this new boiler should be benchmarked against. If it is a Volvo quality boiler it should not be compared against a Fiat Punto. It will be more complicated than an ordinary boiler because it will do more. If that works out then fine. We would still be driving around in Morris Minors if we really wanted to keep cars simple. I for one enjoy a heater, servo , disc brakes, a radio ad infinitum. So whilst I appreciate the logic of KISS sometimes we need to push the boat out a bit.

It a fact that good as solar PV is and I love it, it is no use when it gets dark or during the short days of winter. Therefore a boiler which can generate electricity in the depths of winter when it is working hardest must makes sense. For me this is an accounting exercise, if it can be demonstrated that it will cost me less over 10 years than a conventional boiler I will have one. I need a new CH boiler and will make a decision when it is launched and we get independant research from the likes of Which magazine and others who have no axe to grind, or from reliable people in the trade who fit them.
Nothing new would ever get to market if we are all overly sceptical. Healthy sceptisism combined with a little vision to the future is called for here. I dare say that once launched a lot of the technical stuff will be available. Some of this will be confidential pre launch.

Hi

I really do understand that you expect the boiler to be of high quality, however, we just don't have any idea whether it will slot in at the top, or bottom of the market in quality and overall performance terms ... hopefully, it'll be a decent quality and reliable product Regarding £600 only representing 'a bottom of the range model', well in the applicable 16-18kW heating provision range it would represent a supply price which wouldn't be far from that of models from manufacturers such as GlowWorm, Baxi, Potterton, Ideal Standard, Worcester and Vaillant, which probably represent the majority of major UK installed capacity ....

As previously mentioned, any issues I would have with the offerings would be more related to the way that they've been packaged along with the value they would offer, grid supporting or not. Regarding micro-CHP, checking back in my posting history you'll find that I actually support it, my own technology preference being based on the Ceres fuel cell technology ( http://www.cerespower.com/ ), this being mainly due to the fuel conversion efficiency ... however, it looks like their product development has been purely steered down a combined GCH/co-generation path where it would actually be more suited to being a hybrid CHP/heat-pump, now that's a visionary solution based on technologies worthy of a £5 to £6k price-tag, just a shame that major players in the UK energy supply sector haven't even pushed basic CHP fuel-cell products (boiler/co-gen) to market yet, despite having run some considerable field-tests ....

HTH
Z

Andreg

The arithmetic doesn't make sense to me either, but from the consumer's perspective the basic 'Flow Freedom' contract is very simple: Flow sell you a boiler for £3675 plus installation, then give you a rebate of £4800 on your energy bills over the next four years. The consumer doesn't have to worry about optimising the boiler, running it 24 hours a day all summer etc. You just have to worry about what happens if the system breaks!

So how do Flow make a profit? Lets see:

Flow's website says (in the technical section) that they expect it to generate 2000kwh of electricity per year. This is worth £260 (i.e.2000 * 13p) in FiTs, plus about £200 in electricity (i.e. 2000 * 10p, because it saves them buying that electricity from a large generator). So over the five years, Flow receive net benefits worth:
Sale of boiler: £3500 (net of 5% VAT)
FiTs: £1300
Electricity: £1000
Total: £5800
Minus cost of rebate to consumer: -£4800
Net income for Flow: £1000

It seems totally unrealistic to me that Flow could provide a CHP boiler for £1000! There must be some other benefit to them that we haven't identified. Perhaps by tying consumers in to their energy tariff which they 'aim' (but don't guarantee) will be cheaper than the big providers?

EricMears

Andreg wrote: »

The arithmetic doesn't make sense to me either, but from the consumer's perspective the basic 'Flow Freedom' contract is very simple: Flow sell you a boiler for £3675 plus installation, then give you a rebate of £4800 on your energy bills over the next four years. The consumer doesn't have to worry about optimising the boiler, running it 24 hours a day all summer etc. You just have to worry about what happens if the system breaks!

So how do Flow make a profit? Lets see:

Flow's website says (in the technical section) that they expect it to generate 2000kwh of electricity per year. This is worth £260 (i.e.2000 * 13p) in FiTs, plus about £200 in electricity (i.e. 2000 * 10p, because it saves them buying that electricity from a large generator). So over the five years, Flow receive net benefits worth:
Sale of boiler: £3500 (net of 5% VAT)
FiTs: £1300
Electricity: £1000
Total: £5800
Minus cost of rebate to consumer: -£4800
Net income for Flow: £1000

It seems totally unrealistic to me that Flow could provide a CHP boiler for £1000! There must be some other benefit to them that we haven't identified. Perhaps by tying consumers in to their energy tariff which they 'aim' (but don't guarantee) will be cheaper than the big providers?

Even that's not right !

Surely the £200/year benefit from 'free' electricity doesn't go to Flow but will be enjoyed by the householder ?

Take that off and the net benefit to Flow becomes Zero !

zeupater

EricMears wrote: »

Even that's not right !

Surely the £200/year benefit from 'free' electricity doesn't go to Flow but will be enjoyed by the householder ?

Take that off and the net benefit to Flow becomes Zero !

Hi Eric

That seems to be the way the article is written and the Flow site description reads ... they seem to get 100% of FiT and generation benefit for the first 5 years then share on a 50:50 basis after that ... there's also some really worrying text relating to what happens in the case of the sale of the property ... have a look and see how it reads to you, but it made me chuckle about how naïve they must believe the average homeowner actually is ... notably, the full T&Cs to check the offering properly aren't even made available for scrutiny!

HTH
Z

Andreg

Zeupater, on the sale of the property its pretty simple: the vendor loses the £80pm rebate, and the buyer can choose to have the remains of the rebate, or they can claim the FiTs themselves. I cant see anything 'worrying' about that. I simply wouldn't install it if I were planning to move in the next year or two. After that you've just got to hope the buyer of the house values the £80pm or FiT rebate. Much like solar panels!

zeupater

Andreg wrote: »

The arithmetic doesn't make sense to me either, but from the consumer's perspective the basic 'Flow Freedom' contract is very simple: Flow sell you a boiler for £3675 plus installation, then give you a rebate of £4800 on your energy bills over the next four years. The consumer doesn't have to worry about optimising the boiler, running it 24 hours a day all summer etc. You just have to worry about what happens if the system breaks!

So how do Flow make a profit? Lets see:

Flow's website says (in the technical section) that they expect it to generate 2000kwh of electricity per year. This is worth £260 (i.e.2000 * 13p) in FiTs, plus about £200 in electricity (i.e. 2000 * 10p, because it saves them buying that electricity from a large generator). So over the five years, Flow receive net benefits worth:
Sale of boiler: £3500 (net of 5% VAT)
FiTs: £1300
Electricity: £1000
Total: £5800
Minus cost of rebate to consumer: -£4800
Net income for Flow: £1000

It seems totally unrealistic to me that Flow could provide a CHP boiler for £1000! There must be some other benefit to them that we haven't identified. Perhaps by tying consumers in to their energy tariff which they 'aim' (but don't guarantee) will be cheaper than the big providers?

Hi

A couple of issues to consider .... a few years ago we replace an old floor standing boiler with a Worcester 30CDi wall mounted unit, had the hole in the wall bricked up, boiler pipework significantly changed, an overrun bypass circuit installed and changes to the electrical wiring to cope with the requirement to overrun when the boiler cycles .... oddly, Flow's installation cost alone as detailed by 'popgoestheweasel' is £1800 (possibly ~£1200 lower end for simple installation), which isn't far off the total we paid for supply & install of a much larger system and the installer didn't make a loss on the job ... the question therefore revolves around the cost of the CHP unit to the installer - as previously raised, it's effectively a small boiler with some 'bolt-on' bits based on known technologies from other industries ... so, who knows - £1800 could even cover all of their costs with the remainder smoke & mirrors to make a deal where the consumer is paying for the gas to produce the electricity upon which the provider makes it's profit from either retaining all, or 50% of the combined TGM FiTs and generation over time ....

Now, how better to make the (lifetime) figures stack up in favour of the consumer than overestimating the generation in the sales blurb? - who'd have thought ? ... . Mathematics and science apart ...... If you sideline technology difference between the Flow CHP unit and other ~1kW CHP systems and just accept that a kilowatt is a kilowatt, then you could do worse than simply searching this forum for a term something like 'ecogen' (which pulls up a number of threads) .... typically 2000kWh/year of generation in a domestic environment ?, well have a look and see if anyone's achieved anywhere near that ...

HTH
Z

Andreg

As I pointed out, the consumer doesn't have to worry about the amount of generation. They get their £80pm whether the thing generates 2000kwh a year or 2kwh per year.

If Flow overestimate the amount of electricity it'll generate, they are the party who will suffer.

zeupater

Andreg wrote: »

Zeupater, on the sale of the property its pretty simple: the vendor loses the £80pm rebate, and the buyer can choose to have the remains of the rebate, or they can claim the FiTs themselves. I cant see anything 'worrying' about that. I simply wouldn't install it if I were planning to move in the next year or two. After that you've just got to hope the buyer of the house values the £80pm or FiT rebate. Much like solar panels!

Hi

What about the bits relating to the vendor negotiating to 'sell' the boiler separately to raise funds to pay off the initial loan upon which the 'rebate' covers, despite heating being classified as being it being a 'fixture' within the conveyancing process ? .... :rotfl: .... I wonder what happens when the purchaser's solicitor comes back and says 'no' to having any form of legacy contract against the property? ... does the vendor pay to have the unit removed ? - if so, what happens to the price of a property with no heating ? (usually doesn't increase!) ... does the EPC, a requirement for sale, remain valid ? ... and in any case, the unit becomes virtually valueless as access to FiTs is lost .... The option for the vendor is to simply pay-up the outstanding balance, accept that the house has sold, then write it all off as a being part of their personal 'learning process' ...

HTH
Z

zeupater

Andreg wrote: »

As I pointed out, the consumer doesn't have to worry about the amount of generation. They get their £80pm whether the thing generates 2000kwh a year or 2kwh per year.

If Flow overestimate the amount of electricity it'll generate, they are the party who will suffer.

Hi

The issue is that the unit is packaged with finance and after the initial 5 years an income stream from FiT+Export and saving from reduced imports is dangled as the benefit .... if not, then why's it mentioned .. again, and again, and again, and ... ?? - could this possibly be the hook to reel the customer in ? ...

HTH
Z