ParkingEye Tower Road Newqauy

philc1975

So it looks like I'm the next in a long line of unsuspecting visitors to Newquay to fall foul of this particular car park. I've read though a great number of the threads on here, and through the newbies guides and I have taken the template letter used by one of the previous posters (it's the same one as the template on the parkingcowboys.com). Before I send this appeal to PE for the inevitable rejection and POPLA reference, I wanted to check whether I am taking the right approach given my particular situation.

We parked up on the day in question and paid initially for 5 hours. On returning, we were frustrated to see we were around 15 minutes over the time. Noting the signs about being able to pay for extra time, we paid for an extra hour. We were particularly irked by it as their machines gave no change, so actually paid £2 for the pleasure of 15 minutes extra parking (still better than a fine we thought!).

My dilemma is that the PCN has raised doubts with us now in terms of what we actually purchased. I have trawled through the web trying to find the parking charges to see if what we recall paying is correct in terms of the parking fees (I'm sure it said £6 for all day, which we paid more than if you add both tickets together). Now in our mind, as this was one visit to the car park and not 2 individual ones, surely we paid a sufficient amount for the time we were there.

We have the 2 receipts from what we paid, but I'm concerned we could be hanging ourselves out to dry if we've made a genuine mistake when reading the signs if we include them in any appeal. Any advice on how best to proceed would be much appreciated. Even better, has anyone got a recent photo of the signage at the car park so I can prove we paid the correct amount for the time we spent there. (a 14 hour round trip is a bit too far to get it ourselves!).

Umkomaas

I have taken the template letter used by one of the previous posters (it's the same one as the template on the parkingcowboys.com).

If it's the same one that starts 'Without prejudice, save to costs' (nice and 'legal' eh?). If you don't know what that phrase means, you'd better check it out before slapping it on top of your 'appeal'. Do you think that a long series of questions constitutes an 'appeal'? What's wrong with the one suggested in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky?

The current link on the PC website won't link to any template appeal; been like that for a good week or so. Have they removed it, or amending it?

philc1975

Yes that's the one, but I wasn't keen on that phrase and was going to omit it having read up on it. To be honest I was concerned that the template was a bit long winded and non specific to my particular case, but the advice that was coming through on the other threads I read was to avoid mitigating circumstances as they wouldn't be considered.

There's one on the newbies FAQ that looks very similar in content, but a bit less wordy, so I may amend to use that instead. From your experience, is this shotgun approach of raising an appeal based on multiple grounds the best way of getting the charge quashed.

Any advice appreciated as this is not something I've faced before, but on the basis that we were under the belief we had paid enough to cover our stay I'm not willing to lie down and accept the PCN.

ampersand

Use everything. 'Shotgun approach'? - if you like, but each point is a bullet parkinglie must dodge. You need only one hit.:-)

They'll fire plenty of garbage back at you, omit Beavis appeal, include irrelevant and selective 'success' stats, but your advantage should be - we'll be in new OS adjudication land, remember - that you need succeed on only one ground to see this unenforceable invoice off.

You surely see that the more ammo you pile onto them, the more they have to rebuit? Nothing is there that is not a point in law upon which these scumpanies regularly fail.

Show us your draft for a critique before sending. Remember too, that those templates and guides for newbies are there because they work. ...which includes NO MITIGATION.

philc1975

Okay, so this is the draft I settled on. It is a bit wordy, but comes at them from a number of angles as suggested. There are a few areas I was not sure whether I should include or not (highlighted in blue).

As I've said, this is a bit wordy, but I'd really appreciate your feedback and any guidance you can give to increase my chances of getting the charge cancelled.
.....

Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper [REF xxxxx]

As the registered keeper of a [MAKE OF CAR], registration number XXXXXXXXX on [DATE OF PCN], this letter is a formal challenge to the issue of your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper.

Before I decide how to deal with your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper, I would be grateful if you first answer all the questions and deal with all the issues I have set out below. In this respect I remind you of the obligations set out in the current Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct. Once you have done so, I will be able to make an informed decision on how I deal with the matter.

I would also like to understand what is the basis of your charge? The driver paid sufficient funds for the time spent in this location (going back more than once to top up the payments). I therefore dispute your claim for the reasons set out below. Please note that although I dispute the whole basis of the parking charge, my main concern is its disproportionate and punitive level.

1. Your parking charge amount claim.
Please explain on which of the following grounds your claim is based;
(i) Damages for trespass
(ii) Damages for breach of contract
(iii) A contractual sum

2. Your loss.
If it is your case that a trespass was committed or that a contract was breached such that your claim is one for damages; please give me a full breakdown of the actual losses which evidences that this parking charge is a true reflection of the damages caused solely by the alleged parking contravention.

3. Your status – the creditor.
Your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper simply mentions ParkingEye Car Park Management. Please tell me who is the actual creditor making this £100 parking charge demand? I need to know exactly who is making the claim and in what capacity.

4. Ownership of premises.
Please tell me who owns the car park as I wish to send them a copy of this letter.

5. Contractual Authority (as required by BPA Ltd AOS CoP B.7).
Please provide me with a copy of the contract between your company and the landowner/landholder that provides the necessary contractual written authority for the issue and enforcement of your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper.

6. Signage.
If it is your case that a contract has been breached or that a contractual sum is now due, please send me photographs of the signs that you display and upon which you seek to evidence that a lawful and legally enforceable contract was been entered into. More significantly, please provide evidence that the wording is in plain and intelligible language and in sufficiently large print as to be legible and clear to a driver at the car park’s entry point, given that this seems to be the point where you consider the clock to start ticking.

7. Summary
I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and as there are no ‘exceptional circumstances’, your comprehensive reply within 35 days (in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22.8). I will then be able to make an informed decision as to how I deal with your Parking Charge Notice – Notice to Keeper.

[FONT=&quot]Any communication that does not either confirm cancellation or include a POPLA verification code will be reported to the BPA as a breach of their Code of. Such communication may also be deemed harassment and pursued accordingly. [/FONT]

If you fail to follow any of the procedures outlined in the BPA AOS Code of Practice or your legal requirements under the Protection of Freedoms Act, or the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct then I will make a formal complaint to the DVLA Data Sharing Policy Group, D16.

Finally, the charge is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal costs (i.e. postage, paper, printing, etc…). Equally, I have incurred costs in responding to your incorrect Parking Charge Notice. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, are minimal so this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days and I will not pursue you for my costs.

Please Note: Unless you have specifically requested it and received my express permission, you do not have my authority to disclose or refer this letter or any other communication from me to any other person or organisation.

Yours
.....

Umkomaas

Use that and they'll likely not respond as it isn't a full blown appeal, rather a list of questions as I told you in my earlier post.

Before I decide how to deal with your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper, I would be grateful if you first answer all the questions and deal with all the issues I have set out below.

There's a danger they will argue you haven't appealed, just asked questions, and in light of the fact they've not received an appeal, you will time out on their 28 day appeal deadline, and getting a POPLA code could prove very messy for you.

And to repeat my question from my earlier post!

What's wrong with the one suggested in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky?

philc1975

Point taken (belatedly ). So this is what I have now instead. Much more to the point than the last and less waffle.
....

Dear Sir or Madam

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:

a) Sufficient funds were paid by the driver for the duration of the stay
b). The sum is disproportionate, does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term.
c) The sum is extravagant and unconscionable and cannot be justified.
d). There is no evidence that you have any interest in the land. I will complain to the landowner about your aggressive ticketing.
e). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA so there can be no keeper liability.
f). I believe that the signs were not seen/are ambiguous on entry and the predominant purpose is to deter so there is no contract to pay this charge, which is a penalty.

Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I will only appeal further if you offer POPLA, the only independent ADR with a scrutiny panel and trained Assessors. The 'IAS' offered by IPC firms will not be used, for well-documented reasons.

''Drop hands'' offer
The charge is baseless, as the driver paid sufficient funds for the time spent in this location (going back more than once to top up the payments), but I realise that you may have nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs for responding to your junk mail dressed up to mimic a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15 so this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days and I will not pursue you for my costs.

Breach of CCRs
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered nor expressly agreed. This 'contract' is cancelled and any obligations now end.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,
....

Umkomaas

Forum advice is to use the initial appeal template 'as is'. You will make no inadvertent errors in using that.

And just to prove my point about the Parking Cowboys 'appeal', have a read of the following thread about someone who thought they could come over all 'legal' and ask a load of smartass questions to put PE 'in their place'. He's in a right mess now!

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=97487

philc1975

Okay, so I have cut it back to the "as is" template. One thing I did notice on the PCN after reading through the relevant sections within schedule 4 of the POFA is there is a slight difference. The PCN reads as follows...

"You are warned that if, after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the Date issued), the parking charge has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name and current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you. This warning is given to you under Paragraph 9(2)(f) of Scedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and is subject to our complying with the applicable conditions under Schedule 4 of that Act"

However, POFA Schedule 4 Paragraph 9(2)(f) states...

"(2)The notice must— .
(f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given— .
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and .
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, ."

So I read this as follows;
Date PCN issued: 28/08/15
POFA states 28 days beginning with the day after date issued - 29/8 + 28 days (26/09/2015)
PE states 29 days after date given (presumed 2nd working day after date issued) - As 28/08/15 was a Friday and the following Monday a bank holiday that to me reads as 02/09/15 + 29 days (30/09/2015)

Does this constitute them not adhering to the rules of the section they are trying to charge me under, and providing me with an incorrect date in which to respond, or just a further example of the overly confusing level of non communication they demonstrate as a standard?

Your views as always are much appreciated.

Umkomaas

Save all the technical bits for POPLA. I'm not sure whether this is strictly non- compliant, but I'm a bit lost with the days, dates, counted numbers quoted above. My head's not around it just now.

There are plenty of other issues for POPLA, like contract with landowner, which is the main winning point presently. None of this is likely to have any positive impact at initial appeal stage. Get your POPLA code.

philc1975

I'm submitting the "as is" appeal from the newbies thread. I was just looking through some of the links in there to start formulating a POPLA appeal, which is where I came to the confusion around the dates. To be honest, I'm not even sure if I've got it right myself, but it just seems to me like PE are going out of their way to make their wording as difficult for the non legally trained members of public to understand. But in this instance adding the "working days" comment makes the cut off date even more confusing as the 2 working days hit a bank holiday.