2.5yr gas supply issue.

russj33

Hi folks,

New member but being getting great tips/advice from this site for years and I am hoping some on here may be able to give me some advice on how to progress with an ongoing issue I have with a energy company.


Sorry for long post, please stick with it as I need advice as how to take on an energy supplier.

Not too sure how best to set the situation but given its been over two and half years now I will keep it as condensed as I can and can expand if further detail is required.

I have recorded most of the journey so have a fairly decent account of each stage.

When I moved into my property I realised I was essentially ‘off the grid’ as the company had no record of my address, gas meter or actually knew they were supplying gas to my property.

I could have stayed that way and enjoyed free gas, but I have been brought up to work hard, pay my way, be honest and have integrity.

So I tried for months/yrs to get the company to recognise issues that I was telling them about, but front line staff can’t deal with it so was always assured of a call back......a call never materialised over a two year period despite my constant chasing. I eventually did receive a call but that person was unable to deal with it so assured another call back.......I am still waiting for that.

They couldn’t, and still can’t, tell me how much I owe them however in Oct 14 this did not stop them putting my account in the hand of a debt collector.....I only ever received any bills or debt collecting agency correspondents as my one achievement with them is that I got them to get my name correct and given I live in a village, my local postman knows where I live.

In last 6 months I managed to get a letter of deadlock from them, following my refusal of a solution from them; as given they did not understand the issues the offer was essentially irrelevant.

I then went to ombudsman but did not receive a satisfactory result from them but this was to be expected as they told me, before knowing anything about my case, that the best I could expect would be a 10% reduction on my bill as, and I quote; “that’s all they ever offer and you won’t get anything better”.
This was exactly what they offered, I think, given I still don’t know how much I owe them; but the letter did state the company admit to being at fault for every problem.

I also learnt, what I think is correct, that the ombudsman applies the energy code of conduct which is not law, and is essentially a load of rules, designed by the energy companies to pacify some government pressure about being more accountable.....this has failed as far as I can see.

Following that I went to my local MP but all he did was contact the energy company who stood by ombudsman decision.

I really want to take them to small claims if possible but having spoken to the courts official I need to be able to base in such a manner to be acceptable to be heard by the judge. It is this point I am struggling on, as I have no idea what ‘Laws’ are suitable to base my complaint under?

I work full time but can’t afford independent legal advice but because I work, I don’t qualify for aid in this manner.

Genuinely, if I had the money, I would take this as a private case as I truly believe I have a case that needs to be aired, not just for me, but for others who may be in this situation.

It can’t be right that being honest and trying your best to work an impossible system that you get penalised. That’s just not right.
I know we don’t live in a fair world but I want to fight this as far as I can....it’s about standing up for what is truly RIGHT!!

Any advice on how to progress with small claims or any other route, greatly received.

Thanks for reading.

Best

Russ

JJ_Egan

Struggling to follow the post all i can make out is you never paid and now they want their money .
You moved in and you have meter readings taken then so bill can be at least estimated .
You have correspondence with this energy company before the ombudsman got involved .

modsandmockers

they couldn’t, and still can’t, tell me how much I owe them however in Oct 14 this did not stop them putting my account in the hand of a debt collector

If they cannot tell you how much you owe, then what have they told the debt collector?

the ombudsman applies the energy code of conduct which is not law, and is essentially a load of rules, designed by the energy companies to pacify some government pressure about being more accountable

That sounds about right...

naedanger

russj33 wrote: »

Hi folks,

New member but being getting great tips/advice from this site for years and I am hoping some on here may be able to give me some advice on how to progress with an ongoing issue I have with a energy company.


Sorry for long post, please stick with it as I need advice as how to take on an energy supplier.

Not too sure how best to set the situation but given its been over two and half years now I will keep it as condensed as I can and can expand if further detail is required.

I have recorded most of the journey so have a fairly decent account of each stage.

When I moved into my property I realised I was essentially ‘off the grid’ as the company had no record of my address, gas meter or actually knew they were supplying gas to my property.

I could have stayed that way and enjoyed free gas, but I have been brought up to work hard, pay my way, be honest and have integrity.

So I tried for months/yrs to get the company to recognise issues that I was telling them about, but front line staff can’t deal with it so was always assured of a call back......a call never materialised over a two year period despite my constant chasing. I eventually did receive a call but that person was unable to deal with it so assured another call back.......I am still waiting for that.

They couldn’t, and still can’t, tell me how much I owe them however in Oct 14 this did not stop them putting my account in the hand of a debt collector.....I only ever received any bills or debt collecting agency correspondents as my one achievement with them is that I got them to get my name correct and given I live in a village, my local postman knows where I live.

In last 6 months I managed to get a letter of deadlock from them, following my refusal of a solution from them; as given they did not understand the issues the offer was essentially irrelevant.

I then went to ombudsman but did not receive a satisfactory result from them but this was to be expected as they told me, before knowing anything about my case, that the best I could expect would be a 10% reduction on my bill as, and I quote; “that’s all they ever offer and you won’t get anything better”.
This was exactly what they offered, I think, given I still don’t know how much I owe them; but the letter did state the company admit to being at fault for every problem.

I also learnt, what I think is correct, that the ombudsman applies the energy code of conduct which is not law, and is essentially a load of rules, designed by the energy companies to pacify some government pressure about being more accountable.....this has failed as far as I can see.

Following that I went to my local MP but all he did was contact the energy company who stood by ombudsman decision.

I really want to take them to small claims if possible but having spoken to the courts official I need to be able to base in such a manner to be acceptable to be heard by the judge. It is this point I am struggling on, as I have no idea what ‘Laws’ are suitable to base my complaint under?

I work full time but can’t afford independent legal advice but because I work, I don’t qualify for aid in this manner.

Genuinely, if I had the money, I would take this as a private case as I truly believe I have a case that needs to be aired, not just for me, but for others who may be in this situation.

It can’t be right that being honest and trying your best to work an impossible system that you get penalised. That’s just not right.
I know we don’t live in a fair world but I want to fight this as far as I can....it’s about standing up for what is truly RIGHT!!

Any advice on how to progress with small claims or any other route, greatly received.

Thanks for reading.

Best

Russ

Can you set out a timeline of the key events and pieces of correspondence?

Also what solution has the supplier and Ombudsman proposed and what is the outcome you want?

Generally the codes of practice are more likely to be favourable to the customer than the legal position. (However you are more likely to get a well reasoned decision via the courts, but this is not guaranteed.)

Cardew

It can’t be right that being honest and trying your best to work an impossible system that you get penalised. That’s just not right.
I know we don’t live in a fair world but I want to fight this as far as I can....it’s about standing up for what is truly RIGHT!!

You haven't explained, at least in terms I understand, what you feel is RIGHT.

As said above the 'code of conduct' is much more in favour of the customer than the law. The law in UK essentially states that you pay for what you have used.

From what I understand you haven't paid for gas for two and a half years. So what do you feel should happen?

dogshome

You say you have kept a record of your contacts with this company over the 2+ years- What is the date of your first contact? , and what is the date on the first bill you ever had?

russj33

Thank, I have added a longer (sorry) more explanatory reply.

russj33

Thanks for the replies thus far and sorry for the delay butcurrently I have very limited internet access.

Okay so to try and be more clear I have offered a condensedhistory,

Sorry it’s so long but please do try stick with it…opinions/viewswould be very welcome.



April 13

Initially I phoned SP who informed me they did not supply gas tomy property although I was informed by previous occupants that they did.

I gave them my gas meter serial number and my address but theysaid that no meter of that number resided at that address. I obviouslyexplained that it did but they refused to accept this.

SP informed me to contact the central gas meter register .I did andthey told me my gas was being supplied by SP.

Back to SP who still would not accept this.

I tried to correlate with SP the previous occupant’s names and themeter, and my address but they could not confirm nor deny it due to dataprotection.

Tried to get them to tell me if they had a gas meter of thatserial number registered to them…they could neither confirm nor deny.

Ask for the situation to be escalated, assured it would be andawaited call back.



April 13 –12 Dec 13

Never received call back.

Numerous Lengthy calls to SP to try and resolve issues, front linestaff at customer services never able to deal with situation, never any seniormanagement available, always assured call back. Noe ever received.



12 Dec 13

Eventually I got a front line staff member with some sense who Icoerced into admitting that they had my serial number registered, an account inthe names of the previous occupants but it was all registered to anotheraddress. ( I had told him what the incorrect address would be after I had donesome investigating from my end aftertracking down previous occupants – discovered issues they’d had in the past)

I explained that theaddress was incorrect, was assured this would be changed, gave a reading andawaited a bill.

Dec 13 –July 14

Numerous calls by me to SP chasing bill – every time having toexplain to front line staff the whole saga knowing they could not help to beassured of call back that would never materialise.

Every time, address and name on account still incorrect.



July 14

Received call from complaints - explained situation – that person could not help and was assured callback from senior personnel.

Did manage to get my name changed but address still incorrect.



Mid August14

Received first bill – name correct, address wrong, bill showedconsumption at incorrect address and was based on estimated reading.

I only received bill as postman recognised my name and know whereI actually live.



Mid August– 9 September 14

Numerous bills received, all incorrectly addressed, showingconsumption at incorrect address, varying amounts all based on estimatedreading.



Mid august– October 14

Numerous calls/emails to SP to discuss issues; give readings, getaccurate billing, get address changed, and acceptance of consumption to correctproperty.

All front line staff could never address issues, never a seniormanagement available, always assured call back – call back never materialised.



17 October14

Received letter from Debt collecting agency for outstanding moniesowed to SP

Letter had correct name but wrong address.

Again the only reason I got any correspondence was because postmanknew where I actually lived.



17 – 19Oct 14

Numerous calls to SP – assured call back – none materialised.



20 Oct 14

Refused to hang up until I spoke to senior management. Was assured call back that day.

Received call from Team manager who listened to whole saga, agreedto call off debt collecting agency. Whotook all my details and was to review my account and call me back within 2days.

That call never materialised.



23 Oct 14

Spoke to debt collecting agency – there account with me was stilllive

Rung SP and refused to accept call back promise – However wasinformed that there was no one, not one single person in the whole companycould speak to me.

I flatly refused to accept this and was eventually put through toa senior person. They informed that debt collecting agency had not be calledoff due to a coding issue !!

I also, once again, asked them to change address and address forconsumption – was assured this had been done.

Also informed that there was no complaints opened against myaccount….and no records of issues I had been having!!

Was assured my account would be looked into and would receive callback…Still waiting.



12 Nov -14

Sent registered letter and email to service director outlining myissues and asking for this to be resolved.



14 Nov – 14

Call back from SP – in relation to complaint raised on 23 Oct- notin relation to letter I had sent.

She informed that given I had sent a letter to service directorthat I had best await a response to that. I did not want to do this and wouldrather sort issues now but she said this was now, not possible.



27 Nov –14

Chased SP with regards letter – spoke to front line staff member –was informed my complaint was now closed (who knows why) but opened anothergiven my letter had not been responded to and that the other complaints hadbeen closed without satisfactory conclusion.

2 Dec -14

Bill received – correctly named and addressed (1st time)but still estimated reading and still for consumption elsewhere.



8 Dec – 14

Generic apology letter received for poor customer service –incorrectly addressed.



Jan –- 15

Final demands received – all for consumption of gas at anotherproperty.



Jan – Feb15

Numerous calls to SP to try once again to resolve issues givereading or at minimum know exactly what was outstanding.



Jan – 15

Informed SP I was taking this to Ombudsman(OM) was assured accountwould be put on hold.



April –May - 15

2 x final demands received from SP and a letter from escalatedcollections threatening debt collection agency.

Spoke to SP who assured account would be put on hold. No record ofprevious correspondence informing them of OM action.



Ombudsman(OM)

Oct – 14to Jan – 15

Tried to get OM to take case but was informed without letter ofdeadlock they could not take case.

Jan -Mar -15

To get to deadlock stage you need to refuse an offer from supplier– in my case SP

To get any offer from SP they need to recognise my account andissues with it…….i think the above shows this has proved impossible to achievewith them.

Numerous calls/emails and I eventually got an offer of sorts fromSP

I refused the offer which was based on estimated reading and thatthe consumption was still at another property and eventually received a letterof deadlock.



Feb - Mar– 15

Spoke to OM, by which point I did not really want to pay SP anymonies and actually felt I was due some recompense but l accepted this wasunlikely but that was to be my stance.

The ombudsman informed that I would not get this and the best I couldhope for was 20% discount max and most like 10% if lucky. …..

I asked how he could comment on this given he had no details of my caseor any understanding of it….his response was “because that all they ever offer”– “the code that the ombudsman assess against is just voluntary so they neveroffer more”.



May - 15

Received informal offer – Ihave not added this here as this post is very long but key paragraph is;

You advisethat between April 2013 and July 2014, you contacted Scottish Power on multipleoccasions to set up an account your gas supply, but the company were unable todo so as your meter was not showing at your address.

During ourinvestigation, we have established that Scottish Power initially incorrectlyset up the gas meter on its system, meaning that this showed as ****************

We have noreason to doubt that you first contacted Scottish Power in April 2013 and it isreasonable to assume that the company were unable to set up your account due toit not registering your meter correctly.



RJ – to me that essentially says, no matterhow much I tried to pay them, I couldn’t’ which has been the case all the waythrough!! This is the point that time and time again I have been trying to getthem to resolve!!



July – 15

I refused OM offer which was

apply a credit to your account to remove anyoutstanding charges which relate to

energy used before 15 August 2013, in linewith the requirements of Energy UK’s Code

for Accurate Bills (the Code);

RJ – thisis in line with the ‘back billing’ however the only reason they know I receiveda bill in Aug 14 (thus the Aug 13 date) was because I was honest enough (ornaive); to tell them. If it was not formmy postman knowing, I would neverreceived the bill as it was incorrectly addressed.

· contact you to obtain up to date meterreadings and use the readings to issue an up to

date bill;

RJ– so the 20+ times I had already informed them was not enough??

· update the national gas database to ensureyour meter is registered at your correct

address;

RJ– as far as I am aware, this is and always has been correct and up-to-date

· offer a payment plan to help you repay theoutstanding amount, taking into account your

ability to pay;

· confirm in writing that once you agree apayment plan, it will allow you to transfer your

supply without penalty;

· apply a credit to your account for £150 as agesture of goodwill, due to the shortfall in

customer service you have

RJ - £150against what?? I actually find this offer offensive given the service received.



On- going

July –Sept – 15

I have contacted SP 3 times to try and set up payment with themfor the current time for consumption being used from July - 15 onwards while Ilook to dispute what’s happened previously…

Front line staff, “obviously” can’t deal with this, there is nevera senior member who can so have been assured a call back…..I am still waiting.





Help?????

If you have got this far, thanks so much for reading, I have triedto condense what’s been a huge amount of time and effort trying to solve SPsown issues that I feel I am now being punished for.

I have never denied using the gas and all I have ever tried to dois pay them for what I owe….by their own admission, this has been impossible forme to achieve due to their own error…..

The moral of this, as far as I can see, is to lie and bedishonest.

I don’t feel that the OM offer was reasonable or morally right (Iknow what may be morally right has no weight to it though!!).

Sometime you have to stand up for what you think is an injustice….that’swhat I want to do but don’t know how else to further this situation.

Equally, it may be that I am to emotionally wrapped in this andthat to the impartial eye I just have to suck it up and accept it…it just feelsvery wrong to do so!! But I will not judge others opinions.



Can anyone offer some advice?



Best

Russ

naedanger

If you have refused the Ombudsman's final offer then that is the end of that avenue. Don't waste time trying to get the Ombudsman to reconsider. They won't. They will tell you if you are still unhappy you can take legal action (which is correct).

Your options now, as I see them, are:

1) Try to negotiate a settlement with SP
2) Refuse to pay SP any more than you think they are due and let them take legal action against you
3) Pay SP what they are demanding but make clear this is under duress and then you take legal action against them

My thoughts on each option are:

1) Try to negotiate.
I suspect the best you will get is what the Ombudsman offered. I suspect SP will still honour this but they will require you to agree that is a final settlement so you will not be able to dispute this further or take legal action. Of course SP need not offer anything now.

2) Refuse to pay SP any more than you think they are due and let them take legal action against you.
I don't recommend this option as it is likely to be expensive if SP win. They will start to bill you for debt collection costs and take you to court. They may also apply to the courts to get a prepayment meter issued. Unless you contest this successfully you will have their costs of that to pay on top of all their other costs. There may also be an adverse impact on your credit rating if you don't win.

3) Pay SP what they are demanding but make clear this is under duress and then you take legal action against them.
This is less risky than option 2) since the costs if you lose will be smaller.
To take legal action see the following links:
https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/taking-action-about-consumer-problems/legal-action/going-to-court/taking-court-action/step-one-write-a-letter-before-action/

As far as the legal case goes, you could claim for all your costs of dealing with SP's bad service and claim that SP cannot charge for energy used before [date you calculate] because of the back billing principle. However the court may, or may not, agree with these claims. It depends on how persuasive the judge finds your arguments compared to SP's.

Personally I think you should consider negotiating a settlement (including unfortunately paying SP in full if they play hard) unless you are prepared to risk losing even more in costs. You need to ask yourself why you think you can convince a court of your case when you failed to convince the Ombudsman. Alternatively if money is not a barrier you could speak to a solicitor. (But even if you win you may not be able to claim the costs of your solicitor back from SP.)

[Deleted User]

It wont be a case of legal action for non payment,.thats counter productive. In will come the prepayment meters,under warrant if need be with a weekly debt repayment of up to £16 a week loaded onto the meters. There will a loss also on the tariff as prepayment meters are fixed at standard/variable which is usually the most expensive.

russj33

naedanger wrote: »

If you have refused the Ombudsman's final offer then that is the end of that avenue. Don't waste time trying to get the Ombudsman to reconsider. They won't. They will tell you if you are still unhappy you can take legal action (which is correct).

Your options now, as I see them, are:

1) Try to negotiate a settlement with SP
2) Refuse to pay SP any more than you think they are due and let them take legal action against you
3) Pay SP what they are demanding but make clear this is under duress and then you take legal action against them

My thoughts on each option are:

1) Try to negotiate.
I suspect the best you will get is what the Ombudsman offered. I suspect SP will still honour this but they will require you to agree that is a final settlement so you will not be able to dispute this further or take legal action. Of course SP need not offer anything now.

2) Refuse to pay SP any more than you think they are due and let them take legal action against you.
I don't recommend this option as it is likely to be expensive if SP win. They will start to bill you for debt collection costs and take you to court. They may also apply to the courts to get a prepayment meter issued. Unless you contest this successfully you will have their costs of that to pay on top of all their other costs. There may also be an adverse impact on your credit rating if you don't win.

3) Pay SP what they are demanding but make clear this is under duress and then you take legal action against them.
This is less risky than option 2) since the costs if you lose will be smaller.
To take legal action see the following links:

( Links removed for posting reply.)



As far as the legal case goes, you could claim for all your costs of dealing with SP's bad service and claim that SP cannot charge for energy used before [date you calculate] because of the back billing principle. However the court may, or may not, agree with these claims. It depends on how persuasive the judge finds your arguments compared to SP's.

Personally I think you should consider negotiating a settlement (including unfortunately paying SP in full if they play hard) unless you are prepared to risk losing even more in costs. You need to ask yourself why you think you can convince a court of your case when you failed to convince the Ombudsman. Alternatively if money is not a barrier you could speak to a solicitor. (But even if you win you may not be able to claim the costs of your solicitor back from SP.)

Thanks neadanger - very helpful post.

I suspect I may take the line you suggest.

I don't have the money to fight them legally, mores the pity, but I want to leave myself as many options to do so, if I can find a mechanism to facilitate it.

I will also be returning to my MP as this just feels so very wrong; perhaps I am too close to it but it just feels like bullying to me....and I hate bullying. I feel strongly about what is, to me, just fundamentally wrong. I don't intend to roll over .... I will try and pursue this for as long as I feasibly can.

thanks again for the post, really helpful.

Best

Russ