Advice re Building Regs issue

amgriffiths

We viewed a house yesterday which ticks all sorts of boxes for us, but which comes with a major issue attached. The vendors have carried out a loft conversion in the attic, and the estate agent is pretty certain that they didn't bother adhering to building regulations. There is also a question as to whether planning permission should have been obtained; my back-of-the-envelope calculation has the loft adding more than 50 cubic metres of space.

The vendors are currently mid-divorce, and the estate agent isn't optimistic about getting timely or helpful responses about the history of the loft conversion, so we think that any investigations are going to need to be instigated at our end.

Our concerns:

i) if the loft conversion should have had planning permission, this would need to be obtained retrospectively.

ii) if the loft construction wasn't built up to regulations standard (for example, if the wrong joists were used / fire regulations breached) then it could be unsafe.

iii) until such time as the work is made good (which could be a very big job, if the joists are wrong), the house might be uninsurable - if a fire started in a non-fire-safe loft conversion, for example.

iv) we need to be able to sell the house in due course, so would want to resolve these issues somehow.

I should stress that the loft has not been marketed as a bedroom - simply as a loft space. I know it's not unusual that lofts are done without getting certification. But in this case I rather suspect there is a problem with standards/regs.

Obviously we will need to talk to surveyors, solicitors and perhaps the local council. But I'd be very grateful to hear from anyone with experience of this sort of thing, and any ideas as to the best place to start!

Thanks
Andrew

DandelionPatrol

amgriffiths wrote: »

Obviously we will need to talk to surveyors, solicitors and perhaps the local council.

As one of your options to deal with this is indemnity insurance, do not speak to the local council until you understand what indemnity insurance is and you understand that if you speak to the council, you could still buy indemnity insurance, but it will be utterly worthless.

amgriffiths

Thanks. Presumably I could call the council for advice though, if I didn't mention the specific property? Simply saying that I was looking at a house in their borough, and what would their stance be?

Hoploz

Planning permission is a paperwork issue, easily sorted by an indemnity policy, or if it's been there more than a few years then the council wouldn't enforce it in any case so the indemnity would only be required if your lender asks for it.

If it is being marketed as loft space then you can't ask the sellers to change anything. The important question is, What do YOU intend to use it for? If you want to use it as a bedroom/living accommodation then you will have to get it inspected by your own builder who will quote accordingly.

I know nothing about insurances but I would imagine a fire starting in a loft would still be part of the policy regardless of what the loft is used for, boarded out or not.

Have your survey done (structural survey) and tell the surveyor in advance that you'd like him to pay particular attention to the loft conversion. He will check for any signs of movement etc. He may give you a little guidance as to whether he thinks fire regs are being met for use as living accom or what changes you may like to make. Have an electrician look over the electrics too, if you have concerns over this aspect of fire safety.

But essentially you cannot ask the sellers to make any changes, or reduce the price for any changes you may wish to make, as they have only sold it as loft space - they are making no promises therefore.

amgriffiths

Thanks, Hoploz - this is extremely helpful.

So that I understand correctly: if the room is not marketed/used as living/habitable space, does that mean it cannot be in contravention of building regulations?

Owain_Moneysaver

The problem is not a fire starting in the loft.

The problem is a fire starting on the ground floor (quite likely - where the kitchen usually is) and people being trapped in the loft.

If the loft is being marketed as storage, not a bedroom, then it is clear that it does not have permission. If it doesn't comply with Building Regs and they've altered the roof or put additional loading on the ceiling joists without reinforcement then (rather unlikely but worst case) the whole lot could come crashing down. Putting a bad job right will cost more than doing the job properly in the first place.

Unless you are really sure you want this house, find another one.

Freecall

It is important to note that what a building space is used for is not what matters in terms of Building Control. The issue is what the space is likely to be used for.

Building Control Officers have to apply a test of 'reasonable expectancy' when considering a building.

If not then we would have garage and loft conversions springing up all over the place which would simply be labeled as 'storage spaces'.

We could even see foul drains that are just 'pipes in the ground' rather than a means of disposing of foul waste.

If it looks like a loft conversion then I am afraid that any BCO would class it as one.

Hoploz

amgriffiths wrote: »

Thanks, Hoploz - this is extremely helpful.

So that I understand correctly: if the room is not marketed/used as living/habitable space, does that mean it cannot be in contravention of building regulations?

If it isn't habitable space then it is storage space. Quite like a loft! Therefore ventilation, fire escape route etc will not be an issue, as nobody is likely to be up there for any length of time, apart from putting things up or getting things down. So building control would not enforce anything.

However, as I said before, if you intend using it differently to this then you will obviously value your family's safety - hence you posting in the first place. It is the job of building control to ensure people build things in a safe way. They and their rules aren't there just to annoy people. They can be a great help, in fact.

So if you want to use it as a room you'll have to assume you need to make changes for yourself. Which will probably involve a great deal of work, aggravation and cost. Much easier to start from scratch than rectify someone else's bodge really.

Hoploz

Looking at it another way, you might like to try and dig a little further. It could be that they began the job, applied to the council and did everything right to begin with. Then the marriage broke down and the job was never properly finished. In which case the bare bones may have been done correctly. The BI might have visited and ticked off some stages on his list.

If this is the case then they will not have a completion certificate, but there may be evidence that it is done to a certain standard, but just the finishes were hurried, or the final bits and bobs didn't get done. Or even, the whole job may have been done correctly, but the BI never made the final visit required to issue the completion certificate.

Ask the seller for more details. It may or may not be forthcoming.

G_M

Whether it looks like a cat, miaows like a cat, and eats catfood like a cat, does not matter so long as you call it 'Fido'.

:rotfl:

Planning Permission is unlikely to be needed unless a dormer window was added &/or it's a listed building.

And I'm pretty sure the 50 cm extra space you refer to only applies to increases in the footprint of the building.

The real risk to you is the potential poor workmanship: insuficient insulation, lack of fire escape/inadequate stairs, structural weakness etc

Enforcement by the local authority is unlikely (for either PP or BR) unless it is a very recent conversion AND it is brought to their attention. Indemnity insurance can cover this risk, but not once the conversion has been brought to their attention (as mentioned aove).

So a proper survey is the answer if you go ahead. Be aware that to relly check it out

a) surveyor may need to do damage (eg take off plaster to expose beams for inspection) and vendor would have to agree

b) you may need a structural engineer as well as/instead of a surveyor