Council not able to take action over permitted development breach due to 4 year rule?

easilyamused

We're about 4 weeks from exchange on a house that has an outbuilding in the garden. On the face of it, it looks like the building would fall within permitted development - the footprint is 20m2 and the height of the roof at it's tallest is about 3.5-4m. As I understand it, this is fine so long as it's at least 2m's away from the property boundaries. However this looks to be nearer 1-1.5m away from the boundary on one side.

The owner said it's within permitted development, their solicitors are telling my solicitors it is and my solicitors are saying "Usually, we would just go on what the solicitors tell us as they have a duty to do the relevant investigations". Bit of a cop out methinks.

I understand there's something called a Lawful Development Certificate which would be perfect in a situation such as this, however I also understand they can take at least 8 weeks to sort out, which would be a really iffy delay on the whole chain.

So I'm wondering if we can just rely on the old 4 Year Rule to protect ourselves from any potential action by the council instead? If so, what sort of evidence would you have to produce to prove it's been standing for 4 years? The seller works in the trade so invariably had mates build it for him and probably doesn't have a whole heap of paperwork (we have however asked him to have a hunt around for anything he has). We've found some historical google map images online showing the outbuilding in the garden in 2010, but don't know if this would be enough to cut it?

I know in reality it seems highly unlikely that anything will come of it, but when you're spending that much money on a property (and the outbuilding/workshop was a sizeable reason why we are buying it!) you don't want to leave yourself open to a huge problem down the line do you?

Grateful for anyone that's got experience of these sorts of things or might have some advice!

mart6

Dated google photo will be enough proof.
Council will prob use it to check themselves

45002

easilyamused wrote:

We're about 4 weeks from exchange on a house that has an outbuilding in the garden. On the face of it, it looks like the building would fall within permitted development - the footprint is 20m2 and the height of the roof at it's tallest is about 3.5-4m. As I understand it, this is fine so long as it's at least 2m's away from the property boundaries. However this looks to be nearer 1-1.5m away from the boundary on one side.

The owner said it's within permitted development, their solicitors are telling my solicitors it is and my solicitors are saying "Usually, we would just go on what the solicitors tell us as they have a duty to do the relevant investigations". Bit of a cop out methinks.

I understand there's something called a Lawful Development Certificate which would be perfect in a situation such as this, however I also understand they can take at least 8 weeks to sort out, which would be a really iffy delay on the whole chain.

So I'm wondering if we can just rely on the old 4 Year Rule to protect ourselves from any potential action by the council instead? If so, what sort of evidence would you have to produce to prove it's been standing for 4 years? The seller works in the trade so invariably had mates build it for him and probably doesn't have a whole heap of paperwork (we have however asked him to have a hunt around for anything he has). We've found some historical google map images online showing the outbuilding in the garden in 2010, but don't know if this would be enough to cut it?

I know in reality it seems highly unlikely that anything will come of it, but when you're spending that much money on a property (and the outbuilding/workshop was a sizeable reason why we are buying it!) you don't want to leave yourself open to a huge problem down the line do you?

Grateful for anyone that's got experience of these sorts of things or might have some advice!

Lawful Development Certificate

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/responsibilities/planningpermission/ldc

camptownraces

If they can produce the tiniest bit of evidence that the building was there 4+ years ago, the current owners are likely to get a certificate of lawful existing use or development (CLEUD). There is, curiously, a presumption in favour of the applicant in these cases.

This might be a dated photo, or better still a statement of truth from an independent party - perhaps a neighbour?

Get it done by the sellers if possible NOW, because it'll avoid problems when YOU come to sell the place. You may have to wait a few weeks, but you'll be in a better situation as a result.

easilyamused

Thanks. I guess if we had longer there'd be no question we'd be asking them to get a Lawful Development Certificate - it's just the two month plus delay it would involve that I'm not sure is worth it.

I guess there's two aspects to the issue here - the likelihood of the council getting us to knock it down (not likely as it's been standing 4 years - although the current vendor is better able to prove this than we are) and then the fact that we might face these issues whenever we come to sell further down the line.

Difficult to know what to do but I guess we perhaps shouldn't rush this process for the sake of keeping the chain happy should we?

Or is it feasible to suggest that the sellers go ahead and apply for the LDC and we keep the exchange date as it is, but that the conveyancers hold a sum of money in trust (to cover the cost of rebuild if it did have to be taken down) so that if it gets approved they get their money returned and if it gets refused we keep the money in order to be able to rebuild it?

Sorry for garbled stream of consciousness ...!

lincroft1710

Unless they receive complaints from neighbours, the council won't do anything. Councils do not have armies of planning inspectors peering over fences and hedges looking for unlawfully erected sheds and extensions.

belisha-beacon

When we bought our house, there was a similar issue with an conservatory-like extension on the back. In the end it was straightforward - the sellers agreed to buy indemnity insurance (which I think was about £25), which guarantees that if the council ever come after us claiming the development is not covered by the correct permissions/building regs then our costs of getting retrospective permission are all covered. And we've lived there 5 years now and we kept the estate agent's advertising blurb which proves the room was part of the house when we moved in.

For example: http://www.estateinsurancegroup.com/legalindemnity (I'm not recommending this site, it's just a site I found when searching for something that would explain what I'm saying more clearly!)

easilyamused

Thanks folks. In the end I sent an email to the district council explaining the problem and asking their advice and a very helpful chap replies saying the outbuilding didn't sound like it was within permitted development guidelines but because it had been standing for more than 4 years they cannot take any action. (prompted by a thread I saw on here I think from a guy who worked in planning saying how uninterested they were in pursuing this sort of stuff and that it wasn't worth getting any certificates or indemnities)

So that email combined with anything the seller can dig up to prove when it was completed, is enough to satisfy us I think.

And breathe! God this buying and selling lark is always fraught with worry isn't it!

jimbog

easilyamused wrote: »

Thanks folks. In the end I sent an email to the district council explaining the problem and asking their advice and a very helpful chap replies saying the outbuilding didn't sound like it was within permitted development guidelines but because it had been standing for more than 4 years they cannot take any action. (prompted by a thread I saw on here I think from a guy who worked in planning saying how uninterested they were in pursuing this sort of stuff and that it wasn't worth getting any certificates or indemnities)

So that email combined with anything the seller can dig up to prove when it was completed, is enough to satisfy us I think.

And breathe! God this buying and selling lark is always fraught with worry isn't it!

You can see what was there 4 years ago by downloading Google Earth, click on View on the toolbar and then select Historical Imagery. You can use the slider to choose any year you want

Hoploz

easilyamused wrote: »

Thanks folks. In the end I sent an email to the district council explaining the problem and asking their advice and a very helpful chap replies saying the outbuilding didn't sound like it was within permitted development guidelines but because it had been standing for more than 4 years they cannot take any action.

Well thank goodness he said they wouldn't enforce. If you gave him the address you have just invalidated any future indemnity policy (which could be requested by you or indeed your future buyer when you sell!)

easilyamused

No I just made a vague 'we're buying a house and this is the situation' type enquiry and there was no mention of address or area it was in.