Received a draft tenancy agreement- Help

V6Matt

Hi All,

I am just signing up to a 12 month lease and I have a couple of queries.

1) The lease runs from noon 25th Aug 15 to noon 24th Aug 15, shouldn't this be until 11.59am on the 25th?

I.e if the lease started on 25th Aug 15 (lets say at midnight), then they would expect you to vacate by midnight 24th Aug 15.

The current wording doesn't make sense to me.

2) Generally fees, I was told that there were no fees other than agency fees of approx £300, now they are coming back with fees (that apparently the landlord wants to add but didnt state before) like 10% on any repairs that were our fault and half an inventory fee of £140 ! I fully expect to challenge these, but if there are any estate agency come of ethics I can quote...would be appreciated.

The other oddities aren't worth challenging.

Thanks

theartfullodger

Are you currently in occupation & paying rent?? If so there is no need for a new tenancy or for you to agree to anything... nor any fees unless your current tenancy so requires.

A tenancy can have a fixed term of any dates/times (even 1 day for an AST). But IMHO a landlord that wants noon-to-noon is bonkers...

Pixie5740

1) Yes the tenancy agreement is correct. Your fixed term is for 12 months, not 12 months + 1 day which is what it would be if it went from 25th August 2015 to 25th August 2016.

2) If the landlord wants to charge you for certain items then that has nothing to do with the letting agency. It's quite common for tenants in England & Wales to pay for inventories. Sometimes the landlord pays for the check-in inventory and the tenants pay for the check-out inventory. In your case the landlord wants you to pay half the cost. Any damage you cause (over and above fair wear & tear) during the tenancy you will have to pay for at the end of the tenancy. It sounds as though the landlord will charge a 10% fee for arranging the repairs which seems fine to me as it's not just the damaged item that will need repaired the landlord will have to spend time either carrying out the repair or getting someone else to do it.

greensalad

Pixie5740 wrote: »

1) Yes the tenancy agreement is correct. Your fixed term is for 12 months, not 12 months + 1 day which is what it would be if it went from 25th August 2015 to 25th August 2016.

That would be true if times hadn't been specified. If they had specified that the tenancy started on August 24th, then it would be assumed to be starting at 00:00 on the 24th 2015 and ending at 23:59 on the 24th 2016.

Because the LA has brought in specific times, the tenancy is starting at 12:00 on the 24th 2015. Therefore if it was to finish at 23:59 on the 24th 2016 OP would lose half a day of the tenancy. Therefore the tenancy should end at 11:59 AM on the 25th 2016.

It's actually quite nice that they are specifying times. I had a property let from 1st June but they told me I couldn't check in / do key exchange until 16:30 on that day. I was not very happy, considering that meant the property that I had signed a tenancy agreement on was being withheld from me for 16 1/2 hrs - not at all fair. I ended up agreeing with them a move-in of midday but it still annoyed me that I lost out on a whole morning of tenancy (I was staying in a hotel and had nowhere to go!)

V6Matt

Thanks for the replies,

This is a new lease and not an extension.

1) I understand the point that I would not expect 25th to 25th but the oddity here is the noon element.

e.g if it started on the 25th Aug 15, I would expect this to run until the evening of the 24th Aug 16, however because of this odd noon statement they have effectively not allowed us the run up time.

i.e if we applied their logic to full days, they are basically offering the 25th August until the 23rd August? i.e losing 1 one full day (which can be useful flexibility when packing !)

2) It was categorically stated that were no inventory fees e.t.c this is why I have a particular issue with it, and they have already gone back on multiple agreements.

e.g. it was offered at full asking furnished (as per the listing), however when the agent asked the landlord, they then wanted full asking unfurnished ... ended up agreeing on full asking part furnished. e.t.c e.t.c basically lots of grief.

G_M

Does the lease specify 12 months? Or does it just give the start & end time/date?

If it just gives the dates, then it is perfectly valid, though as Pixie says, it is a tenancy of 12 months - 1 day. Nothing wrong with that.

If it also says 12 months, then there is a conflict.

Where a conflict exists, the terms should be interpreted to the benefit of the person who did not draw up the contract - you.

So either ask for the contract to be amended, or just sign it and decide at the end whether you want to use 12 months, or 12 months less a day as the Term.

The agency has misled you over the fee. The agency acts as the LL's ... err... 'agent', so should have specified, when asked, all the LL's proposed fees.

Which scheme does the agency belong to?

Since 1st October 2014, the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013 S83 requires letting agents in England to sign up to one of 3 schemes:

* The Property Ombudsman
* Ombudsman Services Property
* Property Redress Scheme

greensalad

I still think you are correct in your times. Because the LL has specified a particular time on the tenancy as well as a date (not very common) then they cannot claim the tenancy to end a day earlier. (Well they can, but you could disagree).

It's confusing because usually we specify whole days therefore tenancy starts on 25th and ends on 24th, because the point at which the switch happens is 23:59 / 00:00 - the exact point the day switches dates.

Because they've introduced 'noon' to the agreement, then we need to split the day in half. You are getting only half a day at the beginning of your tenancy, so you're owed the following half a day at the end of it. The tenancy should complete at 11:59AM on the 25th August.

I've always found it bizarre that tenancy agreements don't specify timings on them really. What is to stop you refusing to hand over the keys until 23:59 if the tenancy says you have right to the property for that date? I've had this exact issue with LA's wanting to do check-out at 10am but I still have rights to the property all of that day.

V6Matt

greensalad wrote: »

I still think you are correct in your times. Because the LL has specified a particular time on the tenancy as well as a date (not very common) then they cannot claim the tenancy to end a day earlier. (Well they can, but you could disagree).

It's confusing because usually we specify whole days therefore tenancy starts on 25th and ends on 24th, because the point at which the switch happens is 23:59 / 00:00 - the exact point the day switches dates.

Because they've introduced 'noon' to the agreement, then we need to split the day in half. You are getting only half a day at the beginning of your tenancy, so you're owed the following half a day at the end of it. The tenancy should complete at 11:59AM on the 25th August.

I've always found it bizarre that tenancy agreements don't specify timings on them really. What is to stop you refusing to hand over the keys until 23:59 if the tenancy says you have right to the property for that date? I've had this exact issue with LA's wanting to do check-out at 10am but I still have rights to the property all of that day.

Thanks, exactly my thought.

I will try and convey my thoughts using standard full days, so they can understand why their logic doesn't add up.

booksurr

V6Matt wrote: »

Thanks, exactly my thought.

I will try and convey my thoughts using standard full days, so they can understand why their logic doesn't add up.

please note all of the above posters have ignored the fact 2016 is a LEAP YEAR

noon to midnight on 25/8/2015 is 12 hours
midnight to noon on 24/8/16 is 12 hours
26/8/15 - 23/8/16 is 364 days because it includes 24 hours on 29/2/16 = 8,376 hours

8,376 + 12+ 12 = 8760 hours / 24 = 365 days

your tenancy agreement period is, rather pedantically, timed to be precisely 365 days

Innys1

booksurr wrote: »

please note all of the above posters have ignored the fact 2016 is a LEAP YEAR

noon to midnight on 25/8/2015 is 12 hours
midnight to noon on 24/8/16 is 12 hours
26/8/15 - 23/8/16 is 364 days because it includes 24 hours on 29/2/16 = 8,376 hours

8,376 + 12+ 12 = 8760 hours / 24 = 365 days

your tenancy agreement period is, rather pedantically, timed to be precisely 365 days

I don't see what's pedantic about timing it for exactly 365 days, as opposed to 366. If the tenant feels they are being diddled out of a day that they want, they shouldn't agree to the tenancy, simple as that.

His_Dudeness

The landlord here is probably not trying to diddle out anything. It is probably a mistake arising from specifying times of day for the beginning and end of the tenancy.

It is best to keep things simple and avoid specifying the time of day.

It is also best not to say more than necessary: There is no requirement to specify both duration of the tenancy and the end date.