Ebay seller deceived me into paying far over the odds and is now avoiding contact

swithap

Hi all...

I shall attempt to be as brief and uncomplicated as possible even though this situation is a little complex...

1. I am chosen to source and convert a 1960's caravan into an elegant mobile catering unit for a previous client of mine

2. I am willing to pay a substantial amount for caravan that is in good working order with no horrors

3. I find one on ebay advertised as (sub header) "Good original condition, owned within my family for around 45 years”.
(description) This is a great opportunity to buy a really original classic 4-berth caravan. My parents bought it in around 1972-3 when it was around 5-10 years old. They used it regularly for the next 30 years or so until passing it on to me. I have only used it a few times so it has been standing idle for around 5 years. I had it serviced when I took it on and the person doing the work was amazed at the excellent condition.

4. All pictures in Ad look rosie

5. Reserve price turns out to be around £850, I win the auction at £950 from a £1 start price with 12 other bidders

6. I pay courier to collect caravan, caravan arrives and courier who has experience with caravans is shocked with sellers description and cost of item (courier also had many issues getting jockey wheel to work, not all lights work and brakes not working)

7. I try not to be too concerned as I mostly need the shell of caravan and can easily repair lights handbrake.

8. Following week I begin work, gutting the interior... Whilst gutting out, i discover serious issues from history of damp. The worst areas where covered by brown tape and one particular part of ceilng where the structural wood has rotted is visible before removing inner wall. (the seller had not made any attempt to mention this and all is missed in the pictures)

9. Turns out the wooden structure on all 4 corners is black and completely rotten, also the whole left side of ceiling and 2/3 of one wall. All has stemmed from the roof hatch which i noticed is completelty rotted after removing the plastic shell. (some other problems where, window frames cracked, windows disfunctional, floor in need of repair at entrance)

10. I phoned seller... no answer, i finally get in contact through text, and email horrifying pictures showing history of rot.

11. after many texts, seller is certain that caravan was described correctly, and if i return it as was, he would sell for £1,000 to another potential buyer and give full refund (i.e. frauding yet another buyer)

12. If caravan was desribed correctly i.e. 'in need of restoration' or 'unseen', then, judging by other auctions i have seen it would not have exceeded £200 in auction (it seems all 12 bidders where deceived)

I cannot exercise paypals money back garauntee as my client paid the seller direct via bank transfer after he prompted payment

It doesnt look like the seller wants to settle a solution between the two of us

The question is what grounds do i have now that i have gutted the caravan? which is inevitible if it is to be restored to good original condition seeing as the roof and walls would even need to be removed in the process.

I have politely suggested to the seller that (a) he fully refunds me for wasting my time and money. or (b) settles a percentage of refund, and i take on restoring the shell, brakes, windows, floor, lights and brakes, not to mention fix cause of leaks). this option just seems the only realistic one and saves transporting caravan again, and seller reselling etc (in other words i would be doing him a huge favor)

I have not spoken with seller via phone as he will not answer and have now threatened small claims court

I dont really know where to take it from here... any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

campdave

swithap wrote: »

I dont really know where to take it from here... any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...[/SIZE][/FONT]

Get legal advice, from a solicitor and not an internet forum.

Brooker_Dave

"1960's caravan into an elegant mobile catering unit for a previous client of mine"

B2B Contract, no point going any further, you would appear to be someone who deals in caravans, so thus a court would deem that you should be able to spot a dud when you see one.

Plus you bought it blind.

hollydays

Damp in caravans is really common.
It's 45 years old.
Did you do any research on buying caravans?
Did you ask him if there was any damp?
I find it hard to believe you let a client pay someone for something you hadn't seen.
Also very hard to believe you've let someone tow? A caravan that's been sitting idle for 5 years?

Stoke

I hope I don't sound like a !!!!!! here, I probably do, but I will say it anyway: When you received the caravan, you say you started work a week later? Did you have a look at it before starting work, like when it first turned up on your doorstep? Were the issues not immediately noticeable to you? Like, I consider myself a bit of a car expert, so when I go and view a car, certain things pop straight out at me, some of which might be overlooked by others who have less of a strong knowledge.

I am going to assume that you're an expert, seeing as you restore caravans for a living, so if the issues weren't immediately noticeable to you, how can you expect a seller (who may not be an expert in caravans) to have any idea that such serious problems exist?

If the rot is behind panels, the seller may well not be responsible for the bodge jobs and simply have been happy with it. Tough one this is. I really feel for an item such as a caravan, you would be expected to view the item and caveat emptor may come into play here.

soolin

Brooker_Dave wrote: »

"1960's caravan into an elegant mobile catering unit for a previous client of mine"

B2B Contract, no point going any further, you would appear to be someone who deals in caravans, so thus a court would deem that you should be able to spot a dud when you see one.

Plus you bought it blind.

Dave is right, This is the bit that really matters- not anything else really- a B2B sale has much less protection than any other form of sale and I agree with the earlier comment that as this is going to be extremely difficult for the OP- he/she needs to take proper legal advice.

OP, do you have any form of legal protection through your business or insurance etc? You may be able to get a free consultation to point you in the right direction.

swithap

Thankyou for replies...

To cover some of your points in general, I have never converted a caravan or made a mobile catering unit before, and it was my clients suggestion to have the caravan couriered...

I did take a risk, but tried to play it safe by paying over the odds for a well looked after caravan of which i only needed the shell.

I do see the seller being in the wrong, I would have thought he'd at least have looked over the caravan for errors before advertising as good original condition.

And why say it was exellent condition 5 years ago if not somewhat resembling that condition in auction. On recieving the caravan I was dissapointed but decided to count my losses until week later discovering rot throughout, which seller must have been aware of, especially as he chose not to mention any of the other issues or signs of damp.

One thing i am unsure about, is have i ruined any chance of claiming back from seller having gutted the caravan.

I am now at a loss of £1,000 of clients money and out of work, as caravan convertion was my next work project...

Mistral001

As far as I can see, the description of "good original condition" is one a small claims court judge would probably be able to rule upon fairly easily. You have a problem regarding having started to work on it, however I would go to the small claims court nonetheless. All you can lose is your court fee which is not very much I believe.

Brooker_Dave

swithap wrote: »

I do see the seller being in the wrong, I would have thought he'd at least have looked over the caravan for errors before advertising as good original condition.

The original condition description would suggest to buyers that it had not been modified from its original spec.

The problem you have is that it was not a great deal of money, and it's 50 odd years old, so a court may decide that as a planned money making renovation scheme, you should have viewed it, and not underestimated the amount of work needed to convert into whatever it was going to be.

The B2B thing and the buying unseen will make any court action a wasted of time.

Brooker_Dave

More doomed:

"seller is certain that caravan was described correctly, and if i return it as was, he would sell for £1,000 to another potential buyer and give full refund"

"my client paid the seller direct via bank transfer after he prompted payment"

So seller offered a refund if you returned it, but you didn't.

(court will view that as them being pragmatic and reasonable)

And someone else paid for it, so if any court action does take place the person who paid for it will need to do it.

I'd get down to Wickes and buy some timber.

soolin

Reading Dave Brooker's post and then going back to original post I see another real issue. OP States ;


I cannot exercise paypals money back guarantee as my client paid the seller direct via bank transfer after he prompted payment

So you didn't buy it, your client did ..which means you have no rights at all. All I can suggest is that you advise your client to take legal advice in order to recover their money.