Excel PCN - no mention of POFA

Northern_b

Hi,

Sorry to post if it ends up being unnecessary but my head's spinning a bit with all the info!

Postal PCN received from Excel for not purchasing a ticket. Duration of stay was just 16 minutes, driver didn't notice signs saying ANPR in use whilst popping into shop (for which this is the car park) to actually spend money (!!)

I've complained to the retailer in question but am a little confused as to whether and how best to also appeal to Excel. The PCN makes no mention of POFA 2012 so do I understand correctly that the keeper is under no obligation to name the driver and as such they're stuck? Is it therefore counter-productive to mention POFA in the appeal email as per the template in the newbie guide? Is it right to use the template asking for POPLA when they state that their appeals process is through IAS?

Also, I've heard that the camera/signage installation in question has not received planning permission from the council - Is this something you think should be mentioned in the appeal or should I keep it up my sleeve for use should things go any further?

many thanks in advance for any assistance with this...

NB

Fruitcake

We need to know the date of the parking event and the date the NTK arrived.


It doesn't really matter whether POFA was mentioned or not, only the keeper is liable if the driver isn't named, which you won't be doing, so you are telling the PPC that you are savvy and not a pushover.


You send the template exactly as it is. The bit about PoPLA is to tell the PPC that it is the only creditable independent appeals process because the IPC/IAS method is a kangaroo court and you don't recognise it as a legitimate alternative to PoPLA.


You could tell the PPC you believe they do not have planning permission to erect the cameras and signs and put them to proof otherwise. It might however be better to confirm this with the council planning department so that if it is true, you can state it as fact as opposed to just hearsay which is all it is at the moment.

hoohoo

Excel don't use POFA - they pursue the keeper on the basis that the keeper was the driver.

You can therefore appeal on that point. They will reject. You can then appeal to the IAS who will then find a creative way to reject. Various farcical rejections such as 'I do not believe the appellants statement that they were not the driver' or 'The notice was POFA compliant because it was delivered within 14 days' have emerged.

However, once you have a biased/incompetent judgment like this, Excel will not dare go to court (although they may write red letters to you)

The_Deep

Did the paperwork mention v.a.t.? If not the PPC may have a problem. More reading here


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5087925=


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5033796=


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5195437


If you suspect tax evasion go here


https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs/contact/reporting-tax-evasion

Northern_b

Thanks for the reassurance, have proceeded with the appeal as per the guide and will look at other arguments (planning permission etc.) should the need arise.

Fruitcake: Parking event was allegedly on 24/07/15, issue date on PCN is 06/08/15. It was waiting for us when we returned from a week away on the 9th August, so don't think there are any technicalities there.

Guys_Dad

Northern_b wrote: »

Thanks for the reassurance, have proceeded with the appeal as per the guide and will look at other arguments (planning permission etc.) should the need arise.

Fruitcake: Parking event was allegedly on 24/07/15, issue date on PCN is 06/08/15. It was waiting for us when we returned from a week away on the 9th August, so don't think there are any technicalities there.

I think there might be. The 24th is a Friday and the NtK must be delivered within 15 days. The date on the NtK is the 6th August, which is a Thursday but according to POFA, the assumed delivery date is 2 days after fate of NtK, excluding Saturday or Sunday, which would be 10th August, and that, my friend, is beyond day 15 so you have got them on out of time.

The_Deep

the assumed delivery date is 2 days after fate of NtK, excluding Saturday or Sunday, which would be 10th August, and that, my friend, is beyond day 15 so you have got them on out of time.


How so. I was delivered on or before 8th August, the OP has told us so.

Guys_Dad

The_Deep wrote: »

the assumed delivery date is 2 days after fate of NtK, excluding Saturday or Sunday, which would be 10th August, and that, my friend, is beyond day 15 so you have got them on out of time.


How so. I was delivered on or before 8th August, the OP has told us so.

C'mon Deep - you know we are dealing with technicalities here. You know that is how we win. This is what section 9 of POFA says

(4) The notice must be given by:
(a) handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b) sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
(5) The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
(6) A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted;
and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.


Now unless Northern_b wants to yell out that he received it on a Saturday, the PPC has failed to adhere to POFA and, therefore, can not claim Keeper Liability.

They want to adhere to their t&c with no mitigation so let us adhere to the legal t&c too. :beer:

Northern_b wrote: »

Thanks for the reassurance, have proceeded with the appeal as per the guide and will look at other arguments (planning permission etc.) should the need arise.

Fruitcake: Parking event was allegedly on 24/07/15, issue date on PCN is 06/08/15. It was waiting for us when we returned from a week away on the 9th August, so don't think there are any technicalities there.

Do not ignore this out of time point. If this was a game of poker, the usual appeal points may be three of a kind but the out of time is a Royal Flush and a winning hand.

The_Deep

So GD, what you are in fact saying is that although the NTK was received in time, the OP should say that it was not, because the PPC cannot prove to the contrary.


Brilliant, silly old me.

Castle

If the NTK was received on Saturday 8th August then that is day 15, so it's out of time.

Guys_Dad

The_Deep wrote: »

So GD, what you are in fact saying is that although the NTK was received in time, the OP should say that it was not, because the PPC cannot prove to the contrary.


Brilliant, silly old me.

Not quite. What I am saying is that the legislation deems that the PPC should allow 2 working days for the NtK to arrive and they didn't. It is, therefore, out of time.

It works the other way too. If the NtK had taken 5 days to deliver and it was posted within the relevant timescale but arrived on day 16, OP could not claim that it was out of time even though it did arrive late.

Sometimes, however, the good guys win. This is one of these times.