When Did Ebay Become Such a Rip Off

RFW

motorguy wrote: »

So actually you're in agreement with me -

Ebays fees are higher than we'd want or could be, however you can either accept that, or use the many alternatives that have sprung up?

I don't know anyone was disagreeing that costs could be seen to be too high, we were justifying why they wouldn't necessarily be seen as a "rip-off" by some.
If you're selling something for £200 the listing fee is largely irrelevant, if you're selling for £2 it's a big chunk of the value.
As I said earlier in the thread, if you go back ten years, listing fees have actually gone down and not up.

That said, I think Ebay provided a better deal a few years ago, with changes to search, listing an item doesn't guarantee anyone sees it.

If you argue on value for money in listing as to what went before, I'd agree.

Take me back ten years and I'd have gladly paid £1 per listing, when I was selling £20-£30 items. Now I won't even list for free, it's too much work for not enough return.

Brooker_Dave

Flyonthewall wrote: »

Of course they are, they're a business who want profit. Most businesses would do the same - why wouldn't they? That's how they stay successful and keep growing.

It's debatable if the auction business is making any money, and the customer base has shrunk to a shadow of its former self thanks to their culls of paying customers and the endless fees that leave many sellers making a loss on each sale.

motorguy

Brooker_Dave wrote: »

It's debatable if the auction business is making any money, and the customer base has shrunk to a shadow of its former self thanks to their culls of paying customers and the endless fees that leave many sellers making a loss on each sale.

+1

And this has been my point.

motorguy

RFW wrote: »

I don't know anyone was disagreeing that costs could be seen to be too high, we were justifying why they wouldn't necessarily be seen as a "rip-off" by some.
If you're selling something for £200 the listing fee is largely irrelevant, if you're selling for £2 it's a big chunk of the value.
As I said earlier in the thread, if you go back ten years, listing fees have actually gone down and not up.

That said, I think Ebay provided a better deal a few years ago, with changes to search, listing an item doesn't guarantee anyone sees it.

If you argue on value for money in listing as to what went before, I'd agree.

Take me back ten years and I'd have gladly paid £1 per listing, when I was selling £20-£30 items. Now I won't even list for free, it's too much work for not enough return.

Private sellers are more likely to sell cheaper items and are paying full price on their fees, therefore the percentage paid is high.

This is conveniently hidden through a "listing fee", then a "final value fee", both of which are billed monthly, and a fee for paypal, which is taken at the time. Also fees are calculated to include postage costs, so they're not just taking fees on the auction price but taking maybe another 13% out of your postage! And of course your buyer will then be disgruntled if he sees a £1.00 postage charge for a 72p stamp (neatly forgetting the 15p for the jiffy bag and the 13p in fees)

All a very nice set of smoke and mirrors.

In the middle ground are the small businesses - maybe selling items £1 - £200. On a £200 item they're losing a good 10% plus of their selling price, which could be 50% of their margin.

Each of those groups then have to ensure they have to jump through hoops every month to make sure the "customer experience" is maintained - even if that means paying for the return of an item you know the customer doesnt really want, or allowing the customer to keep the item in a dispute.

And then you have the big players who pay tiny fees and operate by a totally separate set of rules.

Hardly a surprise that so many people are turning away from ebay for selling.

Flyonthewall

Brooker_Dave wrote: »

It's debatable if the auction business is making any money, and the customer base has shrunk to a shadow of its former self thanks to their culls of paying customers and the endless fees that leave many sellers making a loss on each sale.

They're obviously still making money otherwise they couldn't keep going. They're maybe not making as much money.

The sellers choose to sell for a loss though. That says more about the sellers than it does ebay and their fees.

Flyonthewall

motorguy wrote: »

This is conveniently hidden through a "listing fee", then a "final value fee", both of which are billed monthly, and a fee for paypal, which is taken at the time. Also fees are calculated to include postage costs, so they're not just taking fees on the auction price but taking maybe another 13% out of your postage!

How are they hidden? There is a page fully listing all fees. It tells you the fees before you list an item. It's not like it's some big secret and they suddenly spring the costs on you at the end of the month.

And of course your buyer will then be disgruntled if he sees a £1.00 postage charge for a 72p stamp (neatly forgetting the 15p for the jiffy bag and the 13p in fees)

Some buyers may be, but some buyers are idiots and/or don't realise how much postage/packaging actually costs. Some also won't be aware of the fee. That's not ebays fault. Even without the fee on postage costs you'd still have the same issue with buyers and postage costs.

In the middle ground are the small businesses - maybe selling items £1 - £200. On a £200 item they're losing a good 10% plus of their selling price, which could be 50% of their margin.

Up to them to weigh up the costs and decide the best way to sell. It may be a high margin, but that doesn't mean it's not the sellers best way of making a profit.

Each of those groups then have to ensure they have to jump through hoops every month to make sure the "customer experience" is maintained - even if that means paying for the return of an item you know the customer doesnt really want, or allowing the customer to keep the item in a dispute.

And then you have the big players who pay tiny fees and operate by a totally separate set of rules.

Hardly a surprise that so many people are turning away from ebay for selling.

While I do agree that ebay do make sellers jump through hoops, their feedback system causes problems (too many see 3* as fine, they don't realise the harm) and sellers get defects through cases which could often be avoided, overall every business should aim to provide the best customer support they can. A large part of the ebay system is trying to ensure that, even if they aren't getting it totally right.

Worse for private sellers, but then again what are ebay meant to do? You get buyers and sellers who try and scam the system or who are idiots. Sellers agree to the terms when they list.

Perhaps. Then again, people all think differently and like choice. It won't always be about fees or systems, people have different reasons for selling or not selling where they do.

motorguy

Flyonthewall wrote: »

How are they hidden? There is a page fully listing all fees. It tells you the fees before you list an item. It's not like it's some big secret and they suddenly spring the costs on you at the end of the month.

If the costs are so transparent, if i sold an item for £9.54, how much will i actually receive into my bank account, without looking up an online fee calc.

They disperse the fees across several points to make them not look as bad.

Flyonthewall wrote: »

Some buyers may be, but some buyers are idiots and/or don't realise how much postage/packaging actually costs. Some also won't be aware of the fee. That's not ebays fault. Even without the fee on postage costs you'd still have the same issue with buyers and postage costs.

Ah, a great way to look at your customer base - idiots.

Flyonthewall wrote: »

Up to them to weigh up the costs and decide the best way to sell. It may be a high margin, but that doesn't mean it's not the sellers best way of making a profit.

Exactly, and as we've already agreed, there are many other options available these days. :beer:

Flyonthewall wrote: »

While I do agree that ebay do make sellers jump through hoops, their feedback system causes problems (too many see 3* as fine, they don't realise the harm) and sellers get defects through cases which could often be avoided, overall every business should aim to provide the best customer support they can. A large part of the ebay system is trying to ensure that, even if they aren't getting it totally right.

Well i guess thats as close as we're likely to get to you admitting they treat sellers badly :rotfl:

Flyonthewall wrote: »

Worse for private sellers, but then again what are ebay meant to do? You get buyers and sellers who try and scam the system or who are idiots. Sellers agree to the terms when they list.

Why do you keep defending them? You've already admitted they make sellers jump through hoops, we know they cull vast groups of sellers (small business and private, not the big players) and we know that the big players play to a different set of rules to the rest of us, so we're not even playing on a level playing field, but still you side with ebay?

It could be better. Their fees should be more transparent. Their fees should be fair. They need to redress the buyer centric balance and support their grass roots sellers. And they need to stop treating their sellers like !!!!.

Flyonthewall wrote: »

Perhaps. Then again, people all think differently and like choice. It won't always be about fees or systems, people have different reasons for selling or not selling where they do.

Exactly - and hence why we get threads like this started by a long term users of ebay who is disillussioned by what ebay has become. How many more thousands or hundreds of thousands of people are thinking like that or have thought like that worldwide and now no longer sell on ebay?

And dont forget thats a two way street - every seller is usually a buyer too, so if people sell somewhere else, then chances are they'll start to buy somewhere else too.

motorguy

Flyonthewall wrote: »

They're obviously still making money otherwise they couldn't keep going. They're maybe not making as much money.

Or does it show a downward trend of support for what was once a fun and cheap way to sell thats now complex and expensive?

Flyonthewall wrote: »

The sellers choose to sell for a loss though. That says more about the sellers than it does ebay and their fees.

A very simplistic view.

Flyonthewall

motorguy wrote: »

If the costs are so transparent, if i sold an item for £9.54, how much will i actually receive into my bank account, without looking up an online fee calc.

£8.06, assuming no listing fee. I've never used an online fee calc. Fees are 13.4% + 20p (+35p insertion if applicable). Can use a normal calculator for that.

If you wanted a rough idea you could round it up to 15% fees (and round the figure up or down a little if needed). So 15% off 9.50, for example. 15% is 1.42. Gives you £8.08. Not far off. No need for any calculator.

They disperse the fees across several points to make them not look as bad.

Well I always look at them as a whole lol. I know others won't, but still. They should still work out their total fees, especially as a business.

Ah, a great way to look at your customer base - idiots.

I said some. Some are, just a fact. Same goes for sellers.

Exactly, and as we've already agreed, there are many other options available these days. :beer:

Yep. Sometimes the good old fashioned ways of selling are the best though (e.g. carboots).

Well i guess thats as close as we're likely to get to you admitting they treat sellers badly :rotfl:

Generally they could treat sellers better.They treat some worse than others though. As a seller I've had no issues (thankfully) with them.

Why do you keep defending them? You've already admitted they make sellers jump through hoops, we know they cull vast groups of sellers (small business and private, not the big players) and we know that the big players play to a different set of rules to the rest of us, so we're not even playing on a level playing field, but still you side with ebay?

I'm not defending them, I'm just saying every seller has a choice. Ebay have set the rules, you can't blame them when people agree to them rules and then don't like when they get a problem and the site rules are followed. What did they expect? Ebay to break all the rules just for them? It doesn't work that way.

We all know it's not a level playing field and ebay side with buyers over sellers most of the time.

Some people just shouldn't be on ebay, but it's not like ebay can do a test to see if they're ever likely to scam or if they're too stupid to be on the site. If they could there would be far less problems with ebay. Sellers would get their deserved 5*, messages would be sent before cases opened, you'd have no fear of another item being sent back in place of the one sent out or false claims of item not as described. The whole system would work much better. It's just not possible though and you sell knowing this.

It could be better. Their fees should be more transparent. Their fees should be fair. They need to redress the buyer centric balance and support their grass roots sellers. And they need to stop treating their sellers like !!!!.

Ok, what would you suggest to make them more transparent?

What you consider fair and others consider fair may vary. Always going to be someone who isn't happy. Doesn't mean I don't think they could improve the fees system, but just saying.

Exactly - and hence why we get threads like this started by a long term users of ebay who is disillussioned by what ebay has become. How many more thousands or hundreds of thousands of people are thinking like that or have thought like that worldwide and now no longer sell on ebay?

And dont forget thats a two way street - every seller is usually a buyer too, so if people sell somewhere else, then chances are they'll start to buy somewhere else too.

People don't like change, at least not when it comes to sites and money. If they were fine with it before any change will be complained about, even if they later realise it's not a bad change. You look at any site forum or comments or social media when a site has changed its layout - they get so much hate and complaints. People wanting them to change it back right away as they don't like it because it's different.

Ebay is no exception, especially if a person hasn't been on for a little while and has, perhaps, somewhat forgotten the previous issues or exactly what it was like.

Some also expect too much. A massive site like ebay will never be perfect for buyers and sellers because there will always be issues and ebay has to side with one or the other.

Ebay has changed. Better or worse is an individual opinion. A lot have stopped selling on ebay, but I bet there's a lot that have also started selling on ebay too.

Some will stick to what they know, some will leave in anger, some will be loyal to certain sellers so if they sell elsewhere then they buy elsewhere.

Everyone has different views and experiences on ebay and that can change sometimes. A seller posts on here having had a bad week, the comments are more negative. Someone posts a happy story and people are more positive towards ebay, seeing it's not all bad. All it takes is one happy story to have a ripple effect and one angry seller may just give the site another go. There's more to it than just what ebay do.

Flyonthewall

motorguy wrote: »

A very simplistic view.

Perhaps, but doesn't mean it's not true. The prices sellers charge, the value of items and the cost to the seller for the item, postage, packaging, fuel etc. is nothing to do with ebay. Ebay is simply the platform for selling through if they wish.

If a seller decides they don't want to sell for a loss they can up their prices and/or sell elsewhere.

Even if ebay charged no fees sellers could still for a loss and, no doubt, some would.