Train Fare Appeal Denied

peter50000

Hello,
I recently had an issue with showing a train ticket on a train, because i didnt pick up all parts from the printing machine in a rush to board the train.

I've sent off an appeal showing evidence that i bought the ticket through credit card statement but they are still refusing my appeal. I'm quite frustrated as they lady on the train who issued our penality told us that there wouldnt be a problem as long as i could evidence that I had paid for the ticket.

Also i have paid for 2 return tickets and already 1 penalty fare of 20 when all i wanted was two singles..

Can anyone advise me if I am in the wrong here or if i should pursue the appeal further?

Here are the full letters from me and in return

from me;


I am writing to appeal against the penalty fare enclosed in this letter. The train we boarded was on the 5th of july and if memory serves correctly it picked us up at 12.45pm (1 minute past the scheduled time of 12.44pm). From Royston, herts, destination London kings cross.
My partner and I arrived at the station late and in a rush I thought I had bought 2 single tickets to London from the ticket vending machine – we picked up the 2 tickets from the machine and quickly boarded the train which pulled up as the machine printed them.
When the ticket lady approached us and asked for the tickets we noticed that somehow we did not have 2 single tickets to London, but one, two part return ticket to London! (one out and one rtn ticket – as per the scanned ticket attachment).
As I had selected return by mistake and not single we had only picked up two tickets, where infact there would have been 4 tickets for us to pick up (2 must have been left in the station ticket machine). This left us with only one ticket for the direction we were travelling in and therefore we incurred a penalty fare for not being able to provide evidence, at the time of the receipt or proof of purchase from the credit card machine.
Once home and after a couple of days I was able to confirm the amount of £29.00 had been charged to my account (please see credit card statement also attached). The price of 2 return tickets to London from Cambridge on that day.
I was told that if I provided evidence and wrote to this address that a refund would be issued.

in reply

Thank you for your correspondence, received by this office on 17-Jul-2015
Re:
The Penalty Fares Rules work in conjunction with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCOC). Both state that where the facility exists at the origin station passengers must buy the correct ticket for their entire journey before joining the train. Penalty Fare warning notices are displayed at all Penalty Fare stations advising rail users
of the necessity to produce a valid ticket for inspection on request and of the consequences for failing to do so.
Appeal decisions are made in accordance with a Government approved Code of Practice (COP). A copy of the Penalty Fare Rules, NRCOC and approved COP are available online .
I understand you required two single tickets but that you inadvertently selected two return tickets from the ticket vending machine. Consequently, the two single tickets you believed you were retrieving from the dispenser turned out to be both parts of one return ticket, which unfortunately meant that one of you boarded the train without a ticket.
In accordance with the Conditions of Carriage, the safekeeping of a ticket is the passenger’s responsibility. With the exception of some season tickets, mislaid, lost, discarded or stolen tickets will not be replaced, nor will any of their cost be refunded. The NRCOC explains the passenger's rights in relation to any refunds for unused tickets.
When requested by staff of any train company or its agents, passengers must hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any accompanying photocard or Railcard. If not, they will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and may be liable to pay a penalty fare.
A receipt or proof of payment is not a ticket, is not valid for travel and unfortunately cannot be used to retrospectively cancel a penalty fare notice. Nor can a ticket which has been produced for inspection after having travelled (with the exception of a season ticket). Since a valid ticket could not be produced for inspection on request at the time of travel on this occasion, a penalty fare is due.
With that in mind, I regret to advise that your appeal has been unsuccessful. Attached is a statement provided by RPSS. An amount of £20.80 is currently outstanding and should be paid immediately to avoid further action or charges. Payment may be made with the appropriate credit/debit card online. When paying online, please ensure you enter the correct notice prefix and notice number from the notice itself. You can also pay by phone Mon-Fri from 06:00 to 22:00 on 0871 559 2997. Calls are charged at 10ppm plus your phone company's access charge. Alternatively, you can send a cheque or postal order to RPSS, PO Box 89, Portsmouth, Hants, PO1 1EG, attached to a copy of this letter. It is important to make immediate settlement to avoid incurring administration charges because the lodging of an appeal does not suspend the debt recovery process.

yorkie2

The Penalty Fare is correct (it is a charge made for a mistake under certain circumstances), but you may wish to ask Transport Focus if they will help anyway http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/contact/complaint

Obviously you should pay it ASAP before the costs increase, and in the unlikely event of winning an appeal you would be refunded.

peter50000

thanks for response, just a bit frustrated i spent the time appealing as advised when having evidence of paying the ticket doesnt seem to matter..

i guess its better to act as those who genuinally dodge fair and just give a fake name and address on the report if i'm ever in this situation again.

thanks

rdwarr

peter50000 wrote: »

thanks for response, just a bit frustrated i spent the time appealing as advised when having evidence of paying the ticket doesnt seem to matter..

i guess its better to act as those who genuinally dodge fair and just give a fake name and address on the report if i'm ever in this situation again.

Then you fill be treated the same way as those who do that and find yourself in court on a fraud charge.
I understand your frustration but a Penalty Fare is a charge that is levied when people are in the wrong as a result of a perceived genuine mistake. If they thought you were trying it on then you'd be facing prosecution.

Marktheshark

Read the legislation they prosecute under, see if you fall fowl of it.
Nothing else matters but what that legalisation says.

The "conditions of carriage" are not the law, you need to find what the offence will be and what legalisation they claim you will have breached.

Everything else is fogging the issue.

yorkie2

peter50000 wrote: »

thanks for response, just a bit frustrated i spent the time appealing as advised when having evidence of paying the ticket doesnt seem to matter..

My advice would be to pay up (as the PF was correct and an appeal is likely to succeed) but appeal anyway as they may show discretion, but to ensure the appeal was sent both to the so-called "independent" appeals body (they're not really independent!) and also directly to the Train Company concerned. With careful wording you could be successful in seeing discretion be applied.

peter50000 wrote: »

i guess its better to act as those who genuinally dodge fair and just give a fake name and address on the report if i'm ever in this situation again.

That would lead to a criminal record and a fine, in addition to incurring court costs and still having to pay the fare. Giving a false name and address is, at the very least, a 'strict liability' byelaw offence and it could be seen as evidence of an attempt to avoid payment which is a more serious Regulation of Railways Act offence.

Marktheshark wrote: »

Read the legislation they prosecute under, see if you fall fowl of it.
Nothing else matters but what that legalisation says.

The "conditions of carriage" are not the law, you need to find what the offence will be and what legalisation they claim you will have breached.

Everything else is fogging the issue.

He fell foul of the Railway Byelaws. See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1208486, specifically 8.2.2 Byelaws however it was dealt with by means of a Penalty Fare rather than a prosecution.

If a false name & address had been given that would have escalated the matter, potentially resulting in a criminal record.

peter50000

how would they prosecute you or give you a criminal record or fine if they dont have your name or address, they don't do any ID check when they take your details. the reality is that people are doing this all the time and only pay half the penalty and no ticket costs, where as someone in my situation pays the ticket costs and the full penalty fare.

going a bit off topic here, hopefully i won't ever be in this situation again, will try and remember to triple check the details before getting on even if in a last minute rush.

Stigy

yorkie2 wrote: »

That would lead to a criminal record and a fine, in addition to incurring court costs and still having to pay the fare. Giving a false name and address is, at the very least, a 'strict liability' byelaw offence and it could be seen as evidence of an attempt to avoid payment which is a more serious Regulation of Railways Act offence.

Giving a false name and/or address isn't a Byelaw offence and in this scenario would be the more serious Regulation of Railways Act (RRA) offence. If one was to give a false name and address and for whatever reason there wasn't enough evidence to prove a ticket offence under the RRA (The two have to go hand in hand, and to be fair usually do, quite easily....why else would you supply incorrect details if not to avoid a fare?), then you could use Byelaw 23(1) which relates to refusing to give a name and/or address. It's often how one interprets the law in this case, as I guess refusal to give a correct name or address equates, much the same to refusing point blank.

Anyway, I digress.

cookie365

Inspectors do do id checks. And they're also very good at remembering the faces of people they've stopped before.

Stigy

peter50000 wrote: »

how would they prosecute you or give you a criminal record or fine if they dont have your name or address, they don't do any ID check when they take your details. the reality is that people are doing this all the time and only pay half the penalty and no ticket costs, where as someone in my situation pays the ticket costs and the full penalty fare.

going a bit off topic here, hopefully i won't ever be in this situation again, will try and remember to triple check the details before getting on even if in a last minute rush.

In 9/10 cases they would be unable to trace you, but if you have a ticket of sorts (monthly etc), or if the address or name is very similar to another in the same street, then investigations could ensue.

Also, if it's a risk you want to take, fair enough, but any good staff member would know you're giving false particulars and either caution you there and then and do further digging themselves by way of questioning, or call for police assistance. It's often how good a liar you are that helps I suppose, and for a person who isn't stopped all the time for fare evasion, I'm assuming you'd easily show up on the old 'false details' radar as soon as you said your name was John Smith....:beer:

benjus

peter50000 wrote: »

thanks for response, just a bit frustrated i spent the time appealing as advised when having evidence of paying the ticket doesnt seem to matter..

But if they let everyone off who had evidence of paying for the ticket, they'd just get things like groups of people buying half the number of tickets they need (one person uses the ticket, another gets a penalty fare but uses the proof of purchase to appeal).