Supervising a learner driver

Tobster86

interstellaflyer wrote: »

We do not know the level of competence of the learner, raw beginner or someone who is pretty much ready for the test and is just putting in extra practice, if it's the later then no problem, the former, no-one in the car except the person supervising from a common sense angle.

Hence my asking them to 'carefully consider'.

Car_54

interstellaflyer wrote: »

However, the supervisor must not be under the influence of alcohol or use a mobile phone, so I'd say it's a very grey area.

It's not really grey.

Use of a mobile phone by a supervisor is a specific offence.

As for drink, there are two offences: driving (which doesn't apply to the supervisor) and drunk in charge. But for the latter the law says "a person shall be deemed not to have been in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle if he proves that at the material time the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving it so long as he remained unfit to drive through drink or drugs."

For all other offences, it is the driver who would be convicted, and there have been cases recently for speeding. It is theoretically possible for the supervising driver to be charged with aiding and abetting, but I'm not aware of any examples.

System

Also the supervising driver needs to be in a position to take control.
E.G. Knocking the car into nuetral, grabbing the steering wheel to force direction change, using the handbrake.
Can that be done from the back seat?

I also question whether anybody can properly be considered to be supervising when they are more likely concerned with the baby in the front seat and not actually supervising the driver.

interstellaflyer

Car_54 wrote: »

It's not really grey.

Use of a mobile phone by a supervisor is a specific offence.

As for drink, there are two offences: driving (which doesn't apply to the supervisor) and drunk in charge. But for the latter the law says "a person shall be deemed not to have been in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle if he proves that at the material time the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving it so long as he remained unfit to drive through drink or drugs."

For all other offences, it is the driver who would be convicted, and there have been cases recently for speeding. It is theoretically possible for the supervising driver to be charged with aiding and abetting, but I'm not aware of any examples.

If you are going to quote people then please do it in context, I'm well aware of the offences of using a mobile phone or being under the influence of alcohol, however, nowhere does it say that the supervisor 'MUST' be in the front seat, hence my grey area comment.

AdrianC

interstellaflyer wrote: »

however, nowhere does it say that the supervisor 'MUST' be in the front seat, hence my grey area comment.

That's not a grey area. If it's not explicitly prohibited, then it's allowed.

dannyrst

Unless this person has previously been banned and has been ordered to re-take their test, there is no way I'd be comfortable sitting in the back whilst they drive, let alone with a baby in the car!

You learn to pass your test, then, once you've passed, you learn to drive.

IamNotAllowedToUseMyName

While the law is vague on supervision, I would say that there would be a raft of laws a supervising driver could be charged with - contrary to the point above, the supervising driver is ultimately responsible for the use of the car and can be charged with various traffic offences if the learner is not following the rules of the road.

Simply put, you cannot adequately supervise a learner driver from the rear seat. You really need a second rear view mirror fitted, and you need to be able to reach the steering wheel and take neutral and use the handbrake in emergencies. You cannot see properly from the rear seat, so you cannot properly supervise at a difficult junction. The learner driver also cannot communicate as clearly with a back seat passenger.

Baby seats can always fit in the back seat if the back seat is capable of accommodating the adult supervisor. In fact if mum thinks it is necessary to have her bonny baby next to her, then it tells me that mum is not going to be thinking 100% about her driving, and it begs the question of what happens when the little poppet gets restless, because it sure shouldn't be mum interfering.

Generally I would say that learning to drive is stressful for both learner and supervisor and only in the very late stages of learning would I consider having other people in the car, where you allow the learner to do the driving you were going to do anyway.

So, rather than jumping through hoops trying to work out whether the law allows it, just apply common sense - it is entirely stupid to even think of not having the supervisor in the passenger seat, and I suspect that if they were stopped by the police and they found that the supervising driver were not in the front passenger seat, then they would find themselves on a charge of not being in proper control of the vehicle.

Car_54

interstellaflyer wrote: »

If you are going to quote people then please do it in context, I'm well aware of the offences of using a mobile phone or being under the influence of alcohol, however, nowhere does it say that the supervisor 'MUST' be in the front seat, hence my grey area comment.

Once again, it's not a grey area. The law is clear - the supervising driver must be "present with him in or on the vehicle".

As regards being under the influence, what precisely would you charge the supervisor with?

Car_54

IanMSpencer wrote: »

While the law is vague on supervision, I would say that there would be a raft of laws a supervising driver could be charged with - contrary to the point above, the supervising driver is ultimately responsible for the use of the car and can be charged with various traffic offences if the learner is not following the rules of the road.

Simply put, you cannot adequately supervise a learner driver from the rear seat. You really need a second rear view mirror fitted, and you need to be able to reach the steering wheel and take neutral and use the handbrake in emergencies. You cannot see properly from the rear seat, so you cannot properly supervise at a difficult junction. The learner driver also cannot communicate as clearly with a back seat passenger.

Baby seats can always fit in the back seat if the back seat is capable of accommodating the adult supervisor. In fact if mum thinks it is necessary to have her bonny baby next to her, then it tells me that mum is not going to be thinking 100% about her driving, and it begs the question of what happens when the little poppet gets restless, because it sure shouldn't be mum interfering.

Generally I would say that learning to drive is stressful for both learner and supervisor and only in the very late stages of learning would I consider having other people in the car, where you allow the learner to do the driving you were going to do anyway.

So, rather than jumping through hoops trying to work out whether the law allows it, just apply common sense - it is entirely stupid to even think of not having the supervisor in the passenger seat, and I suspect that if they were stopped by the police and they found that the supervising driver were not in the front passenger seat, then they would find themselves on a charge of not being in proper control of the vehicle.

I agree completely with your thoughts on applying common sense rather than trying to explore the boundaries of the law.

However, on your first paragraph, which offences do you have in mind? Most of the common ones (speeding, careless or dangerous driving) apply specifically to "driving", which is the one thing that the supervisor definitely is not doing (especially if he's in the back seat).

AdrianC

Careless driving requires the standard of driving to fall below that expected of a competent driver; or
the driver to not show reasonable consideration for other pedestrians and vehicles on the road.

Could easily be argued that having a supervisor out of reach of the controls and both supervisor and learner distracted by a newborn baby in the front seat would fall under one or both of those.

CD10 for driver, CD12 for supervisor.