understanding solicitors breakdowns

cluelessoncanvey

Hi, right I have finally 'got somewhere' (leasehold flat) offer accepted, broker chosen (L&C) and mortgage chosen. Now I've just got to decide between two solicitors, one recommended by L&C from their panel. The other from colleagues at work who had used them, and their office is next door to work making it easy to pop in and chase up. So I have the breakdown of fees from both. But am somewhat confused on how they compare. Land regisrty and stamp duty is the same so they are fine.

So the L&C one first:

Legal Fee £459.
Leasehold Legal Fee £125
ID Check Fee (per name) £10 (it's just me, is this buyers or sellers or both, have a total so must be already worked out.) The other solicitors doesn't mention this charge, so does that mean they don't charge it, have omitted to mention it or incorporated it into their fee.
Mortgage Legal Fee £75
SDLT Legal Fee £50 (guessing stamp duty? The other solicitors mention a fee of £60 for application of stamp duty to HMRC, this the same thing i am guessing)
CHAPS fee £30 (other solicitor mentions a Bank transfer fee for money transfer to seller's solicitor of £36 - again I am guessing this is the same thing?)
VAT on legal fees
Search Pack £249 (other solicitor quotes £250 but says it is unlikely that they will use all of that sum, this L&C one makes no such assertion)
Completion Searches £6 - no mention of such a thing with the other solicitors

TOTAL £1328 (inc land registry and stamp duty £175 combined)

Recommended from work solicitors quote:

Fees of purchase

£557. plus VAT of £115 = £690 (so what is this comparable to above, is it just the legal fee of £459 in which case they lose, but it says fees of purchase and has no further breakdown other than a disclaimer stating "THere may be a Lender's legal fee to pay at completion if this is referred to in the mortgage offer, but this will not be clear until the Offer is received" (I got this quote before the other, which is done knowing the mortgage details - so is the leasehold legal the lenders legal fee to which they refer? I am guessing so).

Anyway I am also guessing that the fees of purchase of £557 including VAT would include the £459 legal fee, £10 ID check fee, £75 mortgage fee and £6 completion searches as these are not mentioned, if so that = £550 for the L&C, still slightly cheaper. I am assuming the leasehold fee is the lender fee so omitted in this breakdown. If that assumption is correct, that means L&C's quote beats the local solicitors, as all the rest (£36 bank transfer fee compared to £30 CHAPS fee, £60 stamp duty application compared to SDLT of £50) L&C beats them on assuming I have my comparisons right. The only where they may beat them is on the wording that on the search pack they are unlikely to use all of the sum.

But adding up their quote - £557 + VAT of £115 = £690.
£36 Bank transfer fee
£60 (inc VAT) HMRC Stamp duty application online
£250 search pack
plus Stamp Duty and Land Registry fees of £175
TOTAL £1211

If I can assume the lender's legal fee is the leasehold legal fee quoted by L&C's recommended solicitor, as the lender has now been agreed with L&C, adding £125 (plus VAT to be added?) = £1336 for the local solicitor.

So if I have all my comparisons correct the difference between the two is small pence, probably about £50. So the question then is how important is it to have your solicitor local so you can physically pop into the office and chase them up (is this a good thing, sounds it to me, as long as you are not charged for doing so, I would assume my colleagues at work woudl have found out and warned me if that was the case. What he did say is that they were fast and good at chasing up for them when their was a problem). and how good are L&C's recommended Solicitors from their panel?

libf

You need to check that the legal fees for the local recommended firm cover the fact that the property is leasehold and give them the information on the lender that the other firm have so you can get a full quote.

I'm in Oxford and using solicitors in Norfolk for my sale because they were cheapest. When I used an Oxford firm for the purchase 5 years ago I didn't once actually meet anyone working on my case, it was all done by email and letter. Re-mortgaged through an online only firm and they had to be chased up a lot but I did that on the phone.

Generally if a business recommends another firm it's because they are getting commission for it, and not necessarily because they're the right choice for you. I would trust the recommendation of someone I knew over that.

Make sure that whoever you choose is on the panel of your mortgage lender, or they won't be able to work for you. If they offer a no completion, no fee promise that is also good.

Immers7

Lenders legal fee won't be covered in the second solicitors quote. I'm guessing this will be the fee for dealing with the matter on behalf of the mortgage company. This is the mortgage fee accounted for in the first quote from L & C.


You will need to check with the second solicitor whether they have accounted for the property being a leasehold when providing the quote as the same will involve more work (hence the additional leasehold fee from L & C lot). Leasehold fee is just another add on in relation to the the quote from the L & C recommended solicitor.

The searches won't be covered in the second solicitors legal fee quote.

Some solicitors now use a similar tactic to Easyjet/Ryanair with the add ons to market cheaper fees.

G_M

cluelessoncanvey wrote: »

So the L&C one first:

Legal Fee £459. seems fair but a lot of 'extras' below
Leasehold Legal Fee £125 seems fair
ID Check Fee (per name) £10 (it's just me, is this buyers or sellers or both, have a total so must be already worked out.) usually included in legal fee The other solicitors doesn't mention this charge, so does that mean they don't charge it, have omitted to mention it or incorporated it into their fee.maybe, maybe not. Ask!
Mortgage Legal Fee £75 you've told them which lender and checked they can act for them?
SDLT Legal Fee £50 usually included in the legal fee. This is not Stamp duty, it is a cheeky extra for filling in the compulsory form(guessing stamp duty? The other solicitors mention a fee of £60 for application of stamp duty to HMRC, this the same thing i am guessing)yes
CHAPS fee £30 (other solicitor mentions a Bank transfer fee for money transfer to seller's solicitor of £36 - again I am guessing this is the same thing?)yes
VAT on legal fees on the 495, 125 & 75 (you need to add it to your total
Search Pack £249 (other solicitor quotes £250 but says it is unlikely that they will use all of that sum, this L&C one makes no such assertion)this is a vaiable cost (disbursement) so in the end should be the same with either firm
Completion Searches £6 - no mention of such a thing with the other solicitors

TOTAL £1328 (inc land registry and stamp duty £175 combined)

Recommended from work solicitors quote:

Fees of purchase

£557. plus VAT of £115 = £690 (so what is this comparable to above, is it just the legal fee of £459+ VAT in which case they lose, but it says fees of purchase and has no further breakdown other than a disclaimer stating "THere may be a Lender's legal fee to pay at completion if this is referred to in the mortgage offer, but this will not be clear until the Offer is received"so you need to check the fee for acting for the lender, unless you lender has agreed to cover these fees, in which case deduct them from the othe quote (I got this quote before the other, which is done knowing the mortgage details - so is the leasehold legal the lenders legal fee to which they refer? I am guessing so).
does the 557 include leasehold enquiries? ask.
Anyway I am also guessing that the fees of purchase of £557 including VAT would include the £459 legal fee, £10 ID check fee,ask £75 mortgage feeask and £6 completion searches as these are not mentioned,ask if so that = £550 for the L&C, still slightly cheaper. I am assuming the leasehold fee is the lender fee
no.
leasehold fee is beacuse it is a leasehold flat.
Lender's fee is because you are getting a mortgage.
so omitted in this breakdown. If that assumption is correct, that means L&C's quote beats the local solicitors, as all the rest (£36 bank transfer fee compared to £30 CHAPS fee, £60 stamp duty application compared to SDLT of £50) L&C beats them on assuming I have my comparisons right. The only where they may beat them is on the wording that on the search pack they are unlikely to use all of the sum.

But adding up their quote - £557 + VAT of £115 = £690.
£36 Bank transfer fee
£60 (inc VAT) HMRC Stamp duty application online
£250 search pack
plus Stamp Duty and Land Registry fees of £175
TOTAL £1211

If I can assume the lender's legal fee is the leasehold legal fee no quoted by L&C's recommended solicitor, as the lender has now been agreed with L&C, adding £125 (plus VAT to be added?) = £1336 for the local solicitor.

So the question then is how important is it to have your solicitor local so you can physically pop into the office and chase them up (is this a good thing, sounds it to me, as long as you are not charged for doing so, I would assume my colleagues at work woudl have found out and warned me if that was the case. What he did say is that they were fast and good at chasing up for them when their was a problem). and how good are L&C's recommended Solicitors from their panel?

I find it helpful to be able to pop in and sign things on the spot, ask Qs, and complain easily.

Read

http://www.theadvisory.co.uk/conveyancing-quote.php

do not 'assume' anything is included. Either read the Terms of Business for extras, or ask.

cluelessoncanvey

Thanks for some very helpful replies. Since posting this read more, including the advice to get 4 or 5 quotes. That conveyancing quote link seems superb, looks liek basically will have to ring the companies up on monday and go through all of the things on that list and see what they say, as well as covering the questions I've been told to ask from my own comparison here. The bloke at work who recommended them did also say he got a list of charges that were more than he thought there were originally.

Seems a right ol' minefield!

TBagpuss

I agree with the advice to check for clarity.

re: ID check. All conveyancers are required to verify the identity of their clients as part of anti money laundering measures. Some will do this manually by asking you to bring in ID such as driving licence or passport, and proof of address. Others will use ID checking services and will pass the cost of that on to you.

Cost of acting for lender: I would normally expect this to be part of the standard fee, and if it is quoted separately that to me suggests a company which is aiming to show a low 'headline' figure for costs but will add lots of hidden extras, so be wary.

Leasehold costs - this does add extra work, as the solicitor will need to review the lease, may need to draft or check deeds of covenent and will need to liaise with the landlord management co as well as with the seller and lender, so an additional fee would be normal. Be aware that the landlord may well make a charge for consenting to the transfer of the lease and that this is something which your conveyancer will not include in the original quote as they will not know what it is until they get in contact with the landlord/management company.

A local solicitor can be handy if anything needs signing or amending at short notice, or of you have questions.

With the conveyancer recommended by the estate agents, they may have paid a referral fee to the agents

G_M

Don't really agree with you TBagpuss:

Acting for the lender as well as the buyer is a significant extra cost compared to a cash buyer, so I'd expect there to be an extra fee for this.

But the pont for the OP really is to ensure all relevant work is covered and all costs specified.

It would make life a lot easier if there was a standard approach taken by conveyancers for their quotes though.

cluelessoncanvey

That it would! The recommended conveyancer from L&C (London & Country) are the mortage brokers not the EA, but may ask the EA who the seller is using as their is the theory if you use the same one it may speed things up? Dependent on whether i like the sound of theirs.

Malmo

cluelessoncanvey wrote: »

...
may ask the EA who the seller is using as their is the theory if you use the same one it may speed things up? Dependent on whether i like the sound of theirs.

Avoid this for your own benefit!
There are plenty of threads advising against this situation such as this recent one:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5276156

Immers7

cluelessoncanvey wrote: »

That it would! The recommended conveyancer from L&C (London & Country) are the mortage brokers not the EA, but may ask the EA who the seller is using as their is the theory if you use the same one it may speed things up? Dependent on whether i like the sound of theirs.

Conflict of interest for a start.

The theory isn't a very good one.

cluelessoncanvey

Thanks. It's what a bloke in the office is doing, I won't tell him he shouldn't have then!