Anyone successfully disputed with their Council?

muddlemand

Not sure if this belongs under disability or if there's a subforum for legal questions... Has anyone disputed an amount owed to their local Council, and won? With a complaint to a hospital I'd know the process (there's PALS) and with a commercial business there are all sorts of laws, the ombudsman, etc. With the Council it seems you have to go through the Council itself, and from experience they're not good at replying let alone agreeing.

I used to get Direct Payments which paid a PA. There was a mix-up when I became ineligible for the DPs, and I was overpaid. I've been repaying ever since, but I want to dispute the amount I owe.

I do agree that I was overpaid, but I want to argue that the error was only partly mine. The PA's job description included support with personal finances and other paperwork, diary scheduling etc, because I muddle things like that (since having a stroke n my 30s). Also the Council knew about the reason I became ineligible for the DPs, but they failed to pick up on it just as I did - and they didn't have disability as an excuse!

(Plus, part of the overpayment was the PA's overtime: I was paying her more than allowed, because I needed so many more hours(!), for nearly a year before the Council noticed - then they grumbled at me for not putting my monthly returns in, but I had been; when I said that, they realised the returns hadn't been passed to the right team because the person doing that had left, and their job had ceased to exist in a "restructure" so passing on the returns became nobody's job, and meanwhile I was overspending for months without being told.)

It's gone on quite a long time because after losing the PA I was terribly overloaded, and going through divorce, then had a few health crises and a couple of DLA crises. Gradually getting the hang of running the household alone instead of with 25.5 hours/week help from the PA! Now I want to get rid of this debt, at least part of it. I have no idea where to begin. When I was first notified they said on the phone that I would need to phone some department to dispute it, not the department I was speaking to (which just dealt with the numbers I think; in that phone call we just agreed how much I'd pay per month). I don't know what department that was.

My filing is still in a dreadful muddle and I don't know how many weeks/months it will take to find the relevant letters, if I ever can without help. It's not just that I muddle things, I also don't have many days when all the physical bits are working ok for handling papers plus nothing more urgent to be done! So these things take a very long time.

I have once or twice got free legal advice offered by various places (eg Which? magazine 20 minutes' phone call), but they all say this is disability law which isn't their speciality. I've also heard of the Disability Law Service... the one time I managed to contact them, they weren't taking on any new cases and it was down to me to keep trying, but I imagine they're even more swamped now . And someone told me they aren't reliable with confidentiality etc, so maybe not competent. Seems stupid to start the process and fail, when with better advice I could possibly succeed.

I know it sounds pretty hopeless, but it's a lot of money and so I think it's worth making an effort before giving up completely. The way my brain works, it is a BIG effort - I'm not sure I should take it on before my DLA switches to PIP, since they're both "big admin projects" that will take me weeks of focusing. Just to give an idea of my capacity. Frustrating as I used to be a secretary/PA and really efficient at exactly this kind of thing!

Can anyone point to me to the first step? Thank you!

rogerblack

I've not read this in depth.
Speaking in general, the problem is by signing the forms, you legally accept what's in them, even if your PA wrote them.

In principle, you can sue the PA for damages.
In practice, that is not simple.

Why did you become inelegible for direct payments.
Who told the council about this and in what manner?

muddlemand

I understand scan-reading, I know it was long. Trying to break this reply up with bold etc, for ease of skipping through.

My PA wasn't cheating with the money. Sorry, I didn't think of my "precis" being read that way, I was avoiding the complicated saga being even longer. Signing the returns wasn't the problem - they were correct, they showed the amount I really paid her. The overspend didn't show in my DPs account because it never risked going below zero... Normally, with the current account you have to open specifically for DPS, you get your amount paid in monthly and you're not allowed to go overdrawn. In my case, they had paid part of my DPs at the "agency rate" to start with - it took some months to find someone for the job (not a densely-populated area). When after half a year I was sure I was going to employ a PA instead of using an agency, they changed to the PA rate. But the agency rate was higher so the "backed-up" balance was too much. The Council did take it out, but only took a couple of months' worth, and after telling them a few times I gave up. So there was this amount sitting there that I wasn't entitled to, so when I overspent on the overtime, it still never reached a zero balance.

At the time I was completely incapable of noticing the balance was gradually going down. I couldn't even remember the numbers long enough to stand up from reading them and be able to say what they were. I'd muddle £600 and £6,000 and £60,000, for instance. Hence support with finances being written into the care plan which formed the PA's job description. Maybe the PA realised, but if so she probably thought they'd never notice, she wasn't an accountant - she'd always worked as a cook before. (With me she was just doing what she did for her own family, meals, money, driving to swimming and clubs, etc.)

I became ineligible when my mother died and I inherited from her, including her house, which gave me assets higher than the threshold. The system removes your funded care at the same time as the only other person I had in the world to drive me anywhere, help me do anything... so it goes. I didn't realise the implications but "they" did because she'd been on my payroll as an employee - their suggestion. She was here loads more than before I lost my health, drove me to appointments (a full day's outing usually) and made my meals when the PA wasn't around, etc etc.

Back then I never could work out the difference between the team that dealt with the care plan and the DPs etc (the Council) and what I knew as "payroll" which were a company subcontracted by the Council for that support. I *understood* the difference, but I could never remember who belonged to which and how they related to each other. But I knew that "they" knew I'd lost my mum, I'm pretty sure inheriting came up in a phone conversation (Payroll and I were on friendly terms), and even if not, I don't feel someone with the level of putting two and two together which I had then can be held to blame for not connecting her death* with my eligibility, which when they first assessed me had been no question. In fact, for that reason I fantasise about some judge finding I shouldn't ever have owed them anything(!).
* Unexpected, so a big deal for me to handle the practical side (being executor and the only heir).

It came out in a phone call when my divorce was underway and I requested a re-assessment because my then husband, who was the only person getting me out of bed on weekend mornings (the PA did five days), was about to move out. I couldn't get myself sitting up without help. They reassessed, and then a different team checked my eligibility again, and on the phone booking a time to visit that person said, "And all your income is disability benefits, isn't it?" I replied "Yes, except the rent," which of course led to: "What rent?!" Very obvious that I wasn't trying to hide or lie about it. And as soon as I realised, all I could say was that if I had to lose anything or repay anything, please wait till my PA came back as she was off sick, and please if possible give me a week's hand-over for her to talk me through the filing and leave notes I knew where to find.

Unnecessary but for extra colour:
On the phone that person sounded sympathetic but I heard nothing for ten days - then a letter, barely more than a sentence, saying I owed them all the DPs I'd received since my mum's death - more than £18,000. Never saw the PA again. It was quite a shock <wry understatement> and the letter didn't even mention any options, just a 28-day deadline. I did phone to ask for instalments, and since my finances were in a temporary state because I was divorcing, we set up £50/month "temporarily". I've never heard from them again, even to acknowledge receipt (except when I began to get on top of my money, post-divorce, and asked them to put the remaining amount of the debt in a letter so my sums could start from a real number). Sometimes I do wonder if I could simply stop the payments and see whether they notice! I also wonder how many other people have had something similar happen. And how many committed suicide when they got that 28-day notice with no options given.
Bitter? Me?

I'm not paying any interest but I hate having debt, I've never been in debt in my life not counting mortgage. And I don't know but I expect it will stop me getting a credit card etc. In theory I could pay it all out of my savings, but the interest on them will be (when I get investments sorted out) my only income except benefits, and they're also my only pension - no one else to inherit from in future and no chance of being employed again. Haven't even begun to think about paying for care in my old age or anything else. So I really cannot repay the whole amount. At £50/month it will take about thirty years.

missbiggles1

muddlemand wrote: »

I understand scan-reading, I know it was long. Trying to break this reply up with bold etc, for ease of skipping through.

My PA wasn't cheating with the money. Sorry, I didn't think of my "precis" being read that way, I was avoiding the complicated saga being even longer. Signing the returns wasn't the problem - they were correct, they showed the amount I really paid her. The overspend didn't show in my DPs account because it never risked going below zero... Normally, with the current account you have to open specifically for DPS, you get your amount paid in monthly and you're not allowed to go overdrawn. In my case, they had paid part of my DPs at the "agency rate" to start with - it took some months to find someone for the job (not a densely-populated area). When after half a year I was sure I was going to employ a PA instead of using an agency, they changed to the PA rate. But the agency rate was higher so the "backed-up" balance was too much. The Council did take it out, but only took a couple of months' worth, and after telling them a few times I gave up. So there was this amount sitting there that I wasn't entitled to, so when I overspent on the overtime, it still never reached a zero balance.

At the time I was completely incapable of noticing the balance was gradually going down. I couldn't even remember the numbers long enough to stand up from reading them and be able to say what they were. I'd muddle £600 and £6,000 and £60,000, for instance. Hence support with finances being written into the care plan which formed the PA's job description. Maybe the PA realised, but if so she probably thought they'd never notice, she wasn't an accountant - she'd always worked as a cook before. (With me she was just doing what she did for her own family, meals, money, driving to swimming and clubs, etc.)

I became ineligible when my mother died and I inherited from her, including her house, which gave me assets higher than the threshold. The system removes your funded care at the same time as the only other person I had in the world to drive me anywhere, help me do anything... so it goes. I didn't realise the implications but "they" did because she'd been on my payroll as an employee - their suggestion. She was here loads more than before I lost my health, drove me to appointments (a full day's outing usually) and made my meals when the PA wasn't around, etc etc.

Back then I never could work out the difference between the team that dealt with the care plan and the DPs etc (the Council) and what I knew as "payroll" which were a company subcontracted by the Council for that support. I *understood* the difference, but I could never remember who belonged to which and how they related to each other. But I knew that "they" knew I'd lost my mum, I'm pretty sure inheriting came up in a phone conversation (Payroll and I were on friendly terms), and even if not, I don't feel someone with the level of putting two and two together which I had then can be held to blame for not connecting her death* with my eligibility, which when they first assessed me had been no question. In fact, for that reason I fantasise about some judge finding I shouldn't ever have owed them anything(!).
* Unexpected, so a big deal for me to handle the practical side (being executor and the only heir).

It came out in a phone call when my divorce was underway and I requested a re-assessment because my then husband, who was the only person getting me out of bed on weekend mornings (the PA did five days), was about to move out. I couldn't get myself sitting up without help. They reassessed, and then a different team checked my eligibility again, and on the phone booking a time to visit that person said, "And all your income is disability benefits, isn't it?" I replied "Yes, except the rent," which of course led to: "What rent?!" Very obvious that I wasn't trying to hide or lie about it. And as soon as I realised, all I could say was that if I had to lose anything or repay anything, please wait till my PA came back as she was off sick, and please if possible give me a week's hand-over for her to talk me through the filing and leave notes I knew where to find.

Unnecessary but for extra colour:
On the phone that person sounded sympathetic but I heard nothing for ten days - then a letter, barely more than a sentence, saying I owed them all the DPs I'd received since my mum's death - more than £18,000. Never saw the PA again. It was quite a shock <wry understatement> and the letter didn't even mention any options, just a 28-day deadline. I did phone to ask for instalments, and since my finances were in a temporary state because I was divorcing, we set up £50/month "temporarily". I've never heard from them again, even to acknowledge receipt (except when I began to get on top of my money, post-divorce, and asked them to put the remaining amount of the debt in a letter so my sums could start from a real number). Sometimes I do wonder if I could simply stop the payments and see whether they notice! I also wonder how many other people have had something similar happen. And how many committed suicide when they got that 28-day notice with no options given.
Bitter? Me?

I'm not paying any interest but I hate having debt, I've never been in debt in my life not counting mortgage. And I don't know but I expect it will stop me getting a credit card etc. In theory I could pay it all out of my savings, but the interest on them will be (when I get investments sorted out) my only income except benefits, and they're also my only pension - no one else to inherit from in future and no chance of being employed again. Haven't even begun to think about paying for care in my old age or anything else. So I really cannot repay the whole amount. At £50/month it will take about thirty years.

If you have savings, it's hard to argue that you can't afford to repay this.

Sorry.

muddlemand

I wouldn't attempt to argue that. (It *would* make my old age difficult, but that's not the point.)

I would argue that I shouldn't be the only one bearing the burden of the debt. The error was on both sides. And my care plan (which they wrote after assessing me) did include support with finances, so they can't deny knowing it was a foreseeable mistake - I certainly made no attempt to cheat.

(When I said I can't repay the whole amount, I meant all in one go. My instinct is very strongly to do exactly that, even without a fight, and make the whole thing go away, because I so hate being in debt. I can keep paying £50/month, yes - although if I didn't have to, I'd visit my mum's grave two or three times a year, instead of once if I'm lucky. And when I'm older maybe I won't manage £50/month, but at this rate it will last till I'm nearly 80. My present circumstances are VERY tight indeed, single parent unable to ever to earn again, and to stop money being even tighter as I become older and weaker, I need to get something like 12% interest on the savings I've got. I really cannot just give away such a big chunk of money. (I no longer have rent coming in because I had to sell the house when we divorced, because my ex had debts he lied about)).

There are lots of ways I've lost money by muddling things that a person with "normal" ability would find easy (let alone a person with a good education and a background in admin, bookkeeping and computers - that's me). In one or two cases, thousands of pounds. Let alone various things I couldn't get as cheap because I wasn't well enough to meet the deadline, etc. That's one way that disabilities cost more and so it's one thing benefits are supposed to be for.

But the Council was in error AT LEAST as much as I was. Their letter didn't even let me know where to begin questioning the debt. I'd love to have it decided that they bore the whole responsibility, of course, and that could be argued but it's too much to hope.

I feel at least half should be on their side. That is what I said above, though I realise there was a lot of detail in what I said above.

Savvy_Sue

I just wonder if it would be worth you getting some help with this, paying for it out of your savings, just to achieve resolution one way or the other.

rogerblack

I do indeed wonder about the above.
You say you have savings - if you can find a qualified solicitor who knows about benefits and disability law, and the overpayments regulations - there are potentially several arguments why you may have been overpaid, but recovery should not be undertaken.
A general solicitor is going to be useless.

mrcol1000

If you make an official complaint to the council they will respond. If you are unhappy with their response then you can go to the local government ombudsman. They can look into it and in some cases order a financial resolution. They are independent and investigate fully. In my previous life I worked for a local council and due to the nature of my role was a couple of times unfairly complained about.

You can not however go to the ombudsman until you give the council an opportunity to respond to your complaint. Ring up the department and find whom complaints should be sent to. When they respond they should give you info on the next stage or google local government ombudsman.

However it can be a lot of time and effort so I would bear in mind the advice from other posters before deciding if to proceed.

muddlemand

Thanks, Savvy_Sue, rogerblack and mrcol1000!

I have thought of paying a solicitor myself. It may come to as much as the debt itself, though, and I'd be paying it now - which amounts to the same as giving up and repaying the overpayment. I can't be sure I'd get my costs awarded. I know I do have savings, but things honestly are very tight and all my assets have to be for my old age (not expecting to get any State help when my needs increase! - or probably, won't be fit enough to fight for it), and there's no one else I'm ever going to inherit from. It's still a thought though, when I have more information to base the decision on.

@ mrcol1000, I need to find the phone number. I usually start with email because phoning causes me pain, and I did (quite a while ago) use the Council's online contact form - once or twice - without any reply. In fact I need to find the little paperwork I have, the original letter and the later one with the up-to-date balance, and hope I noted the phone number when I called about paying in instalments; that person told me which department it was (different from the one that sent the invoice), and I wasn't well enough to go ahead at the time.

I'm happy to go to the Ombudsman (though not confident they're always unbiased... that's a different question). Things take me 5 or 6 times what I'd expect when I was well, but I have now learnt to work round the problems and use my "own" brain when it's available. If you know what I mean.

@ rogerblack, I know a general solicitor is no use!
What do you mean by: "recovery should not be undertaken"?

rogerblack

mrcol1000 wrote: »

If you make an official complaint to the council they will respond. If you are unhappy with their response then you can go to the local government ombudsman. They can look into it and in some cases order a financial resolution. They are independent and investigate fully. In my previous life I worked for a local council and due to the nature of my role was a couple of times unfairly complained about.

Be very careful.
A complaint is usually different to an appeal.
An appeal can in some circumstances decide you don't owe the money at all.
A complaint will usually not have this power.

muddlemand

Thank you! I never would have thought of that. When I get there, I'll go for appeal. (Scary... but that won't stop me; state of health is the only thing that yet might.)

So by "recovery" you meant complaining? Just to be double clear.