Another phantom push button flush problem

pimento

This is driving me insane.

I had a new loo installed in my en suite eighteen months or so ago and since day one, the cistern will intermittently make a noise like the cistern is filling but just for four (count them) seconds, then it stops. This happens about once an hour regardless of the time of day and how often the loo is used.

The installer couldn't work out what the problem was and replaced just about the entire internal gubbins of the loo (it was a cheap loo) with a more expensive set of valves and gizmos but the problem remains.

I have now sort of got used to it but I had someone staying the other night and they were amazed when they heard the noise in the middle of the night. It woke them up and frightened the life out of them.

I've tried troubleshooting myself. In theory, I know that the cistern is probably overflowing somewhere (albeit very slowly) and that once it falls below a certain level, it fills again automatically but the inside of my loo looks nothing like the ones on YouTube. The pan stays totally dry.

My loo is a button press with two buttons then there's a cable (fnar) from the underside of the button that is attached to the large bit in the middle that sits in the water. There's a fill valve thing on the right have side in the water and there doesn't seem to be any overflow to the outside world like there was with my old loo.

I need a photo for this, really, don't I? I'll take one when I get home tonight but in the meantime, any ideas?

DavidFx

I'm assuming this is a close coupled cistern - where the cistern sits on the toilet pan (rather than a back-to-wall pan with concealed cistern).
Yes, it sounds like a leak from the cistern into the pan as there are no obvious signs of a leak.

To check this, turn off the water to the cistern (isolation valve or lift the fill valve float) and see if the water level does drop.
I had a similar problem and checked out all the cistern internals. I finally removed the cistern and placed it on blocks on newspaper on a table. Half filled with water and detected the leak that way. In my case it was a fault in the cistern manufacture making it porous. A replacement cistern solved the problem.

The flush valve you have is a drop valve - the overflow is the pipe in the centre

pimento

It's this one:

http://www.screwfix.com/p/toilet-to-go-close-coupled-toilet-dual-flush-6ltr/78711

I have tried turning the screw that closes the water down (stops the cistern filling) to see if it would stop the intermittent noise but it doesn't.

What level should drop? In the cistern or in the pan?

pimento

.. and I've found a schematic of the innards.

http://www.free-instruction-manuals.com/pdf/pa_337722.pdf

WestonDave

My guess is that the overflow is integral to the flush mechanism so that if the water level is too high it runs away into the toilet cistern.


Clearly 4 seconds fill isn't going to replace very much water - which then takes an hour to disappear so it could be virtually untraceable.


What I would do is overfill the cistern (bowl of water tipped in gently) until you can see where the overflowing water is going. That will give you a better idea where to check.


However I suspect the solution is going to be to ensure that the float valve sits lower in the tank so that when it cuts off, the water level is still low enough to avoid the overflow.


You have my sympathies - one of our toilets if not flushed fully, tends not to seat the valve properly with the same results you are getting.

pimento

I'm almost at the point of replacing the whole toilet.

DavidFx

pimento wrote: »

I have tried turning the screw that closes the water down (stops the cistern filling) to see if it would stop the intermittent noise but it doesn't.

You are turning off the isolation valve in the cistern cold water feed
One of these:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/15mm-isolating-valve-pack-of-10/32802

If there is no water flow what is making the noise?

With the water off, does the cistern water level drop.

If you empty the cistern (flush) with the water off does it still make a noise?

Le_Kirk

I had this problem and it was the centre stack that had broken. The central column is a push and turn bayonet fitting. One of the lugs on the side at the bottom had broken and was allowing the column to tip sideways which in turn allowed water to seep through into the seal (doughnut) between cistern and pan. If you are lucky, it overflows into the pan. If you are unlucky like me it drips on the floor! At least I was able to see it and this made me search further until I found the answer.

pimento

DavidFx wrote: »

You are turning off the isolation valve in the cistern cold water feed
One of these:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/15mm-isolating-valve-pack-of-10/32802

If there is no water flow what is making the noise?

With the water off, does the cistern water level drop.

If you empty the cistern (flush) with the water off does it still make a noise?

Yes, that's the one.

I don't know why the noise still happens with no water flow.

I don't know if the water level drops with the water off. I assume it would take a while to check and when the noise carried on with the water turned off thought that that wasn't what the problem was so turned it back on again.

I will try not letting it fill back up after flushing when I go home tonight.

And take some snaps.

I appreciate all the input so far. Thank you.

pimento

Le_Kirk wrote: »

I had this problem and it was the centre stack that had broken. The central column is a push and turn bayonet fitting. One of the lugs on the side at the bottom had broken and was allowing the column to tip sideways which in turn allowed water to seep through into the seal (doughnut) between cistern and pan. If you are lucky, it overflows into the pan. If you are unlucky like me it drips on the floor! At least I was able to see it and this made me search further until I found the answer.

I think I need a plumber for this.

pimento

Blimey! It's a right palavar getting pictures on here. Anyway, here's the culprit.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw882tLzuMOqU0N1SjF1a2owOVU/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw882tLzuMOqSDJzNm91M1dpVHM/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw882tLzuMOqZHNZTWFYWXdlN00/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw882tLzuMOqWVRSaElvZXBoTzQ/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw882tLzuMOqRWZpYzNQekYtR3M/view?usp=sharing