Uncle Henry's PCN

Redx

Grandad123 wrote: »

Whilst waiting to put in my appeal I came across this bit on their website as I am trying to find a way of stopping this situation happening to someone else, which is my longer term goal.

that is also the goal of all of us "victims who fight back , lol

Grandad123 wrote: »

I am trying to contact the practice manager to see if it possible for them to cancel invalid CPN's. It would be a bit tricky as you couldn't expect the receptionist to make an assessment of the validity of the PCN. At the moment they will only give a confirmation of appointment. After that you are left out to dry.


The most likely action of a person on receiving the PCN is to go to the reception desk and this is the point that suitable advice should be given. There was another victim there when went. As I am trying to get some cooperation from the Practice Manager I will leave any threats of litigation until later on. Unfortunately he/she is proving to be elusive at the moment, it's quicker to get a doctor's appointment, but it may be worth the wait.

when I had a complaint I wrote to my practice manager and hand delivered it, no wriggling out of it then (not about parking however)

in writing is always better than verbal, plus creates a paper trail for later use

Grandad123 wrote: »

I am not sure, but I think my initial post may have been edited out as I used the Wexxx word from the previous poster. I am not sure if it was a comment on the quality of joke or deemed to have broken the code of conduct of the forum. Or maybe I just forgot to press submit.

if it was edited then an admin note would be seen near or at the bottom of the post, I doubt anyone edited it (no editing note by anyone) , not even you , although a few of us asked you to do so

so please edit it into paragraphs by using ADVANCED EDIT on post #1 , using the return key where appropriate

best not to make assumptions or to think admin staff hide what they do, they dont (I admin on other forums and can tell you a footprint is left behind)

thank you , and good luck

Grandad123

Thank you for your advice, I was planning a personal appearance but it is very difficult to find a parking space there, especially as technically I wouldn't be a patient.


I suppose I could use the NCP across the road!


Today we are packing Uncle Henry's cases, as he is off on hols. with his sister to Eastbourne. He is "going equipped" with his Zimmer frame and his night time urinary collection device.


I would like to warn CPM of his presence in the area but I only have the address of a PO Box in Lancing. Lets hope they are googling the forum so that they will keep their windows shut next week.


I am still finding my way with forum, just realised I left myself logged. What a wally.

ColliesCarer

Grandad123 wrote: »

..........
It is with regret that we too have had to employ a similar company to ensure that our interests are looked after and that our patients are able to park legitimately in the spaces allocated to them in a space not occupied by individuals not visiting any of the practices on site.......

Although it still doesn't say a BB must be on display it does infer there is some sort of contract with CPM so that would eliminate that particular appealing point.

Although it seems the surgery has sub-contracted to the parking company to manage parking spaces, you do not know how that contract is worded.

A "no contract" appeal point shouldn't just be challenging whether a contract of some sort exists - it should be challenging whether any such contract that may exist gives the PPC the required assignment of rights needed to be able to pursue payment of charges through the courts in their own name.

It also seems that the surgery are themselves tenants/leaseholders and are not the actual landowner.

So you should also be challenging whether the surgery's lease with the landowner permits them to assign such rights anyway and requesting an unredacted copy of the surgery's lease too.

The reason for the above is that the surgery's lease may prohibit or restrict the transfer of such rights to another party ( termed "alienation" in property law) - so even if the surgery's contract with the PPC attempts to grant such rights - the surgery may not themselves have the right to do so thereby making any such assignment unlawful.

Grandad123

Thanks, I will bear that in mind when I tweak up my appeal, but I don't want to get bogged down too much with legalities I am not comfortable with.


It is getting to me a bit at the moment that I am having to go to such lengths to prove my 'innocence' of a 'crime' I did not commit on the whim of company residing in a mysterious PO Box 3114 in Lancing. It seems to be very small office.


They have come out of the woodwork today and they have sent me a duplicate of letter they sent me when they rejected my appeal.


I suppose they are trying to confuse me as I am expecting to receive their evidence that they will be presenting at the POPLA appeal.


I have also had a reply from my MP today in response to my request to tackle these Private Car Parking Companies. Lovely lady but completely useless.


The whole letter explained how hunky dory the situation was and explained to me about the independent appeals procedure bless her. I guess her chauffeur has not had a ticket yet or maybe it can be claimed back on expenses.

ColliesCarer

Grandad123 wrote: »

Thanks, I will bear that in mind when I tweak up my appeal, but I don't want to get bogged down too much with legalities I am not comfortable with..........

Sorry but I think you are missing the point.

It's the legalities that will win your appeal and whilst I understand that you may not be comfortable, or familiar, with property law - the point is you don't have to be.

You make the challenge - the PPC have to disprove it - not to you - But to POPLA - who do know the legalities and if they don't disprove it - you win.

Having the correct assignments of rights is fundamental to the lawfulness of the parking charge notice.

Many POPLAs are won on this point because the PPC do not supply a contract (nor a copy of their clients lease) in their evidence packs and therefore the challenges made cannot be disproved and POPLA would have to find in favour of the motorist.

So IMO you are missing a major appeal point if you do not include the suggested challenges on the contract and the lease.

Bear in mind - nothing is going to come back on you if what you contend proves not to be the case!

Grandad123

I am sorry I was on a bit of a downer at the time I replied, my mojo was wearing thin. The nice chaps at CPM are wearing me down. Luckily todays visit to Uncle Henry has refortified me.


The contract situation is even more complicated as there are several medical practices in the same building all using the same car parking area.


In fact there is a sign on the wall at the 'disabled' entrance to the building which says DICKSON HOUSE PARKING, Dickson House being the umbrella name for the various medical practices. This sign is right next to the CPM sign and also states DISABLED BADGE HOLDERS.


As the second sign does not distinguish between the disabled bays, or the allocated spaces for the non disabled patients, I presume the intention is that only BB holders can park there and the fit ones have to climb up two floors and use another entrance. It's pure nonsense.


It would therefore seem if one surgery has made a contract with the PPC they would all have to be part of the same contract. Only a contract with the landowner would have any merit. At that point my brain fries up a bit, and that's when I get uncomfortable.


I will of course put a mention in to challenge their right to issue tickets, and see what contract they have and with who. As we can't seem to unravel the situation I am sure the adjudicator will have similar difficulties. He has my sympathies.

ColliesCarer

Sorry to hear you were on a bit of a downer.

But you are worrying far too much about CPM - don't let them get to you - they are beatable.

You are also overthinking this and seem to think you have to know exactly what the set up is before you can challenge it.

You don't - your job is to get the challenge in - You don't need to "unravel" the situation and if POPLA aren't able to unravel it either then YOU WIN.

All you need to do is to include something along the lines of the wording in italics below:

"Neither CPM nor their clients are the landowner and I contend that any contract CPM may have with their client does not give them sufficient assignment of rights such that they can pursue parking charges through the courts in their own name.

Moreover should a contract with their client be produced that appears to assign such rights to CPM, I further contend that the client's lease with the landowner does not permit them to lawfully assign such rights to a third party company.

I put CPM to strict proof of the contrary of the above challenges and require they produce contemporaneous, unredacted copies of both their contract with their client (showing they have the required assignment of rights) and of the clients lease with the landowner (showing the client has been given the right by the landowner to assign such proprietary rights to a third party)."

Also take a look at this page of what I think is the medical centres web-site
http://www.crownheightsmedicalcentre.co.uk/info.aspx?p=12

Practice Staff have the duty:

"Not to discriminate against patients or staff and to adhere to equal opportunities and equality and human rights legislation."

Their parking policy fails the above

Grandad123

Thanks for that. I do have an appeal point referring to this point but I will certainly beef it up a bit as per your suggestions. I am just waiting for CPM,s evidence or the week before POPLA hearing before submitting appeal.


Funny CPM sent me another copy of their rejection letter with no other comments on it. I think they are still trying to intimidate me in to paying.


Was going to ignore it but as I am waiting around I decided to ask them, very politely, what they are playing at as they must have known I received the first letter.


I also asked if any future correspondence could include a business address not just a PO Box No.


It passed the time and it will be interesting to see their reaction. Will they come out of the woodwork?

Grandad123

Dear CC as a person of high intellect, and better still a dog lover I would appreciate your opinion on something that's niggling at me on the CPM signs.


Under the "THE FOLLOWING FEES APPLY" it says that "PARKING CHARGE NOTICE......£100 Per Day".


If this "fee" (which I now know is not a fee) should say something like per/day or any part thereof for CPM to charge £100 in every case.


If as the sign says the fee is Per/Day they must recover it at a pro-rata rate depending on the time period of the 'offence'.


Sorry I am getting a bit bored with this waiting.

Umkomaas

Thanks for that. I do have an appeal point referring to this point but I will certainly beef it up a bit as per your suggestions. I am just waiting for CPM,s evidence or the week before POPLA hearing before submitting appeal.

Sorry, I've not re-read the whole thread again, but do you already have your POPLA code? In which case you need to be getting your appeal into POPLA. The PPC won't supply you with any further 'evidence' until you have submitted your appeal to POPLA who then forward it to the PPC for comment (of which you will get a copy for rebuttal).

Don't sleepwalk into missing that POPLA deadline - it gets more difficult if you do!