Possessory Title in garden & neighboring garden

rusty_shilling

Hi all,

We are close to exchanging on a house, despite only having a possessory title for the garden at the back of the property. The solicitor seems happy, the seller is providing an indemnity policy, and we are still waiting for the lenders approval.

Still, something doesn't sit right. I've run Land Registry Searches on the sellers neighbor and they have an identical possessory title, with the red lines in their garden almost matching the property we are looking to buy.

This suggests to me that this isn't a case of lost deeds, but something bigger. Seller not being forthcoming, so would appreciate your advice on...

- What this sounds like to you? Lost deeds? Something bigger?
- Is there any way to find out what is going on (or what once went on) at the back of these properties that have possessory titles on their gardens?
- Sub-question...do you think this will prove tricky when we come to sell in 3 years or so?

Many thanks
JD

princeofpounds

Probably the original paperwork was lost or the gardens were not recorded correctly in the first place.


I'm not quite sure what you are looking for here - we have no idea what happened and possessory title is still a good title.

moneyistooshorttomention

Sounds to me like there is a 3rd property just beyond these two gardens that is the owner of this garden and both house-owners decided to make a grab for the land and are fighting each other about who can manage to take over the land from the real owner.

I wouldn't even go there - even if I thought it was okay to do that (which I don't) - as I'd have visions of a knock-down fight with the next-door neighbour about it at some point.

NB; I'm astonished at seeing the Land Registry seems to have (substantially) stuck a "possessory title" on this bit of land for 2 different properties. This does sound rather negligent of them...

Land_Registry

rusty_shilling wrote: »

- What this sounds like to you? Lost deeds? Something bigger?
- Is there any way to find out what is going on (or what once went on) at the back of these properties that have possessory titles on their gardens?
- Sub-question...do you think this will prove tricky when we come to sell in 3 years or so?
JD

Whilst the previous suggestions may well hold true in my experience it sounds more likely that the original developer left an area of land (not a ransom strip) between the new plots/houses and the neighbouring land. A developer will sometimes do this to minimalise the risk of any boundary issues for example with the neighbouring landowner.

Once a few years have passed owners of each plot/house decide to move their fences back to enclose this additional land and over time they then acquire it through adverse possession. See our Practice Guides 4 and 5

It won't be lost deeds and very unlikely to be an error with the registration simply because it appears to have been repeated with your neighbouring property (and more?)

The seller should be able to explain more but if you are really concerned then you could contact us to enquire how possessory title came about and apply for a copy for example of the supporting evidence used to back up the claim - this will normally be a statutory declaration from the owner setting out the basis of their claim.

If your solicitor is happy and an indemnity policy is in play then there is little else normally to be done although I appreciate you want peace of mind. Finding out from us why possessory title came about and then obtaining the supporting evidence will take a week or more depending on how it is stored.

After 12 years from the date the possessory title was granted you can apply to upgrade it to absolute. Not sure if the 3 years you mention is relevant to that or whether that is simply the length of time you plan to stay.

If the 12 years have not passed when you move on then your buyer is likely to ask the same questions and want the same indemnity policy but much will depend on their conveyancer's advice of course.

stator

rusty_shilling wrote: »

Hi all,

We are close to exchanging on a house, despite only having a possessory title for the garden at the back of the property. The solicitor seems happy, the seller is providing an indemnity policy, and we are still waiting for the lenders approval.

Still, something doesn't sit right. I've run Land Registry Searches on the sellers neighbor and they have an identical possessory title, with the red lines in their garden almost matching the property we are looking to buy.

This suggests to me that this isn't a case of lost deeds, but something bigger. Seller not being forthcoming, so would appreciate your advice on...

- What this sounds like to you? Lost deeds? Something bigger?
- Is there any way to find out what is going on (or what once went on) at the back of these properties that have possessory titles on their gardens?
- Sub-question...do you think this will prove tricky when we come to sell in 3 years or so?

Many thanks
JD

Do you mean the neighbour is claiming the land that you think is part of the house that you are buying, or do you mean that the neighbour is also claiming a similar piece of land next door to the house you are buying, but not overlapping with the piece you are buying?

rusty_shilling

Thank you all for your advice. I really appreciate the time you've taken to respond.

stator, in terms of your question...

"Do you mean the neighbour is claiming the land that you think is part of the house that you are buying, or do you mean that the neighbour is also claiming a similar piece of land next door to the house you are buying, but not overlapping with the piece you are buying?"

The neighbor has a possessory title on their garden too, very similar in size, red lines matching up, but not overlapping on each other. They're not claiming on the house we are looking to buy at all, but just have an identical plot that's not got an absolute title.

I wonder if there is a way to see a possessory title that pre-daes the existing owners? It would be good to know if it could be turned into a absolute title quicker than the 5 years it's currently got left if we took on the property now.

Land_Registry

rusty_shilling wrote: »

I wonder if there is a way to see a possessory title that pre-daes the existing owners? It would be good to know if it could be turned into a absolute title quicker than the 5 years it's currently got left if we took on the property now.

If you look at the register for the possessory title you will see it's registration date in the A Property Register - see the date in brackets at the start of the first entry.

If the current owners bought after that date then you know it was registered before them so they went through a similar process ot yourself.

Section 3 of our Practice Guide on upgrading a title explains what would be required once the time has elapsed.

rusty_shilling

Thanks Land Registry representative. We're really thankful.

So according to the below, we could get this changed to and absolute title in 2017 (12 years on from 2005)? But may need some old title deeds to prove it.

A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in
the title.

1 (26.08.2005) The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the
above Title filed at the Registry and being land at the back of xxx.

B: Proprietorship Register
This register specifies the class of title and
identifies the owner. It contains any entries that
affect the right of disposal.

Title possessory

1 (xx.xx.2008) PROPRIETOR: xxxx
2 (xx.xx.2007) The price stated to have been paid on xxx for
the land in this title and in xxx was xxx.
3 (xx.xx.2011) RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate by
the proprietor of the registered estate is to be registered without a
written consent signed by the proprietor for the time being of the
Charge dated xxx in favour of xxx referred to in
the Charges Register.

Land_Registry

26 Aug 2017 is the trigger date for any upgrade and the seller clearly bought after the claim was registered so have presumably been down the same conveyancing path as yourselves on this.

Unlikely you will need to produce any deeds (you don't have any after all) and as the guide mentions in section 3.2.1 Use panel 10(C) of form UT1 to tell us who is in physical possession of the property.

The application to upgrade is in essence your reaffirmation that you have been in physical possession of the land as well as the first hurdle, the possessory title was covered by a previous owner. You have simply kept it going.

The previous claim will have provided evidence that they had been in possession for 12 years as well so when 2017 comes around 24 years at least will have elapsed and the law takes the view that the legal owner has then had ample time to dispute the original claim.

The situation you face is not than uncommon and the fact that there is a possessory title in place is often sufficient to proceed. It is where the selelr is claiming ownership but only after 3, 5, 6 etc years of possession that the worry lines tend to appear.

The fact that the neighbour appears to have gone through exactly the same process can also be a reassurance.

But you must rely on your conveyancer to help you decide

rusty_shilling

Hi Land Registry representation,

In the words of Columbo... "one last thing"!

Our conveyencer has said...

"In relation to the possessory title, if you look at the date it states that Mr X acquired the area of land on xxth August 2008, 12 years from 2008 is 2020. That is when you will be able to make an application to the Land Registry to apply for title absolute."

I'm confused!

Many thanks

Land_Registry

Rusty Shilling - I think if you look at it logically (a la Columbo) you will no longer be confused.

The 12 years starts running with regards the upgrade scenario once the title has been granted possessory title through being registered. So the start date in this scenario is 26.08.2005 and 12 years from then would be when you applied to upgrade the title to absolute.

If you think of it in terms of when the current owner was registered, as the conveyancer appears to be suggesting, then in theory the possessory title could be sold every other year, a new owner registered and you would never get to the 12 years - now that would be confusing.

The conveyancer may be thinking more with regards if the current owner is claiming ownership through possession where the title has yet to be granted. However that is not the case here.

Hope that helps