Debit card stolen daily

unholyangel

marliepanda wrote: »

"Casual visitor" he lived with them, was a member of the family. He didn't just spot it on a sideboard with a giant post it note of the pin, he clearly got it whilst shopping with them

Why so clearly that he got it from shopping with them?

I wasn't calling him a casual visitor. I was highlighting that the judgement above stated they didnt feel the cardholder had been negligent because the card & pin was not available to casual visitors.

I think theres a reasonable expectation that some trust is placed in those family members you live with. Or does everyone here lock up all their belongings in one room which no one else in their house has access to?

Its one thing to actively give your pin & card to someone (or leave it out in the open where anyone who was in your house could get it). Its quite another to think that everyone should assume their family are thieves and are negligent simply because they've been the victim of a crime. Its absurd imo. And we don't have nearly enough information to know whether OP was negligent or not.

zagfles

wealdroam wrote: »

But that is not the bank's problem, is it?



I would say not.

It is not the bank's job to stop you varying your withdrawal patterns.

Anyway, as it was going on for a month, it appears that a different regular pattern had been established.

Frankly, as you have been robbed by your own family (your words, not mine), I cannot understand why you think that is the bank's fault.

What has that got to do with anything? The issue isn't whether it's the bank's fault, the issue is whether the OP was negligent, or whether the OP authorised the offender to use the card.

The bank are probably arguing he knew the PIN so it had to be one or the other. A likely scenario is him being with the OP when buying something and the OP using obvious single finger presses when entering the PIN. If that's negligent, then half the people who use PIN pads are negligent. I've regularly been in a queue to pay and have seen the PIN numbers entered of most of the people in front of me in the queue!

OP - take it up with the FO if you get nowhere with your bank. You're likely to have a good case, it's definitely worth trying.

And in future (if this applies) always make sure you enter the PIN in a way no-one can see it, eg cover the PIN pad with other hand, or if only one hand free, put multiple fingers on different numbers so it's hard to see what numbers are pressed. Never use obvious single finger key presses like most people seem to!

Warpa

zagfles wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything? The issue isn't whether it's the bank's fault, the issue is whether the OP was negligent, or whether the OP authorised the offender to use the card.

The bank are probably arguing he knew the PIN so it had to be one or the other. A likely scenario is him being with the OP when buying something and the OP using obvious single finger presses when entering the PIN. If that's negligent, then half the people who use PIN pads are negligent. I've regularly been in a queue to pay and have seen the PIN numbers entered of most of the people in front of me in the queue!

OP - take it up with the FO if you get nowhere with your bank. You're likely to have a good case, it's definitely worth trying.

And in future (if this applies) always make sure you enter the PIN in a way no-one can see it, eg cover the PIN pad with other hand, or if only one hand free, put multiple fingers on different numbers so it's hard to see what numbers are pressed. Never use obvious single finger key presses like most people seem to!

What is the FO? I dont hold the bank entirely responsible but they could have done more. The card was taken illegally from my property used and replaced. I had to ask for the card to be cancelled and had to change the pin myself, I know the banks security was not at fault, but my card and my pin were used by someone pretending to be me (fraud?)

Along with this crime he was charged with more accounts of theft from others, he has already done 6 months in juvenile prison, now it will be a good few years in adult prison, he doesnt even sign on so has no means to repay me.

MothballsWallet

wealdroam wrote: »

But that is not the bank's problem, is it?



I would say not.

It is not the bank's job to stop you varying your withdrawal patterns.

Anyway, as it was going on for a month, it appears that a different regular pattern had been established.

Frankly, as you have been robbed by your own family (your words, not mine), I cannot understand why you think that is the bank's fault.

And the problem in cases like the OP's, it's the rest of their bank's customers who'll foot the bill if the OP's complaint is upheld.

Far better, OP, to take a civil action against the kid if the police/CPS won't do anything about it - I'd recommend trying to find a local solicitor in your area who'll offer an initial 30 minutes/hour session for free to assess whether you've got a case.

I think that, provided the solicitor says you've got a case with a good chance, you can add your legal costs to the amount claimed on the court papers.

wealdroam

zagfles wrote: »

The issue isn't whether it's the bank's fault, the issue is whether the OP was negligent, or whether the OP authorised the offender to use the card.

I agree. So why do you think the bank should suffer the loss?

You seem to be saying that either the OP was negligent, or the OP gave permission for the withdrawals. In either of those cases, it is my opinion that the OP has to take responsibility for the loss.

zagfles wrote: »

The bank are probably arguing he knew the PIN so it had to be one or the other. A likely scenario is him being with the OP when buying something and the OP using obvious single finger presses when entering the PIN. If that's negligent, then half the people who use PIN pads are negligent. I've regularly been in a queue to pay and have seen the PIN numbers entered of most of the people in front of me in the queue!

Yes, again I agree. I also have seen many people not taking the care they should when entering their PIN, and every single one of them is being negligent.

zagfles wrote: »

And in future (if this applies) always make sure you enter the PIN in a way no-one can see it, eg cover the PIN pad with other hand, or if only one hand free, put multiple fingers on different numbers so it's hard to see what numbers are pressed. Never use obvious single finger key presses like most people seem to!

Excellent advice.

It is clear the OP has been negligent, and it is equally clear that he/she needs to take full responsibility for that shortcoming.

Keep_pedalling

On a very rough calculation, this lad stole £15,000 from your current account. I don't really see why the bank should be responsible for that considering you failed to check what was going on for so long. Even if you only checked your account once a month you would have prevented the loss of £12,000,

Although you could claim the bank should have picked up unusual activity, if the lad was using cash points in the same area you do then that is far less likely than if this had been with a cloned card in a far off location.

wealdroam

Warpa wrote: »

What is the FO?

In this context, FO probably means Financial Ombudsman.

zagfles

Warpa wrote: »

What is the FO? I dont hold the bank entirely responsible but they could have done more. The card was taken illegally from my property used and replaced. I had to ask for the card to be cancelled and had to change the pin myself, I know the banks security was not at fault, but my card and my pin were used by someone pretending to be me (fraud?)

Along with this crime he was charged with more accounts of theft from others, he has already done 6 months in juvenile prison, now it will be a good few years in adult prison, he doesnt even sign on so has no means to repay me.

FO is financial ombudsman. Have a look at your bank's T&C's, there'll be something about being able to refer any dispute to the FO, and there'll usually be contact details for the FO, number, address, email.

zagfles

wealdroam wrote: »

I agree. So why do you think the bank should suffer the loss?

You seem to be saying that either the OP was negligent, or the OP gave permission for the withdrawals. In either of those cases, it is my opinion that the OP has to take responsibility for the loss.

No, I'm saying that's likely to be bank's view. The bank need to prove the OP was negligent (ie didn't care of the PIN properly) or fraudulent (gave the thief the card & PIN). I think they'd have difficulty. There've been loads of FO cases where the PIN was used and where the customer was found not to have been negligent or a fraudster.

Yes, again I agree. I also have seen many people not taking the care they should when entering their PIN, and every single one of them is being negligent.

Arguable. I'd say keeping any record of the PIN written down is far more negligent, but the FO disagree as you can see from the case posted above.

Therefore the OP should pursue. Not certain to win, but I'd give him/her odds on on winning. Or more likely, the bank rolling over before it gets to the FO.

Keep_pedalling

Would not the fact that the OP failed to check his account over a 5 month period count as negligent? especially an account with a large amount of money in it. That fact that the lad had easy access to the card would indicate it was just left laying around rather than being kept in the OPs bedroom at night might also be seen as negligent.