Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

Martyn1981

Sounds promising.

Solar panels to be fitted on all new-build homes in England by 2027

Almost all new homes in England will be fitted with solar panels during construction within two years, the government will announce after Keir Starmer rejected Tony Blair’s criticism of net zero policies.

Housebuilders will be legally required to install solar panels on the roofs of new properties by 2027 under the plans.

QrizB

Martyn1981 said:

Sounds promising.

Solar panels to be fitted on all new-build homes in England by 2027

Almost all new homes in England will be fitted with solar panels during construction within two years, the government will announce after Keir Starmer rejected Tony Blair’s criticism of net zero policies.

Housebuilders will be legally required to install solar panels on the roofs of new properties by 2027 under the plans.

IIRC this was planned back in 2014 or so, under the Coalition government, but then canned along with all the other "green crap" by Cameron's mob.

That election has a lot to answer for.

zeupater

Martyn1981 said:

Sounds promising.

Solar panels to be fitted on all new-build homes in England by 2027

Almost all new homes in England will be fitted with solar panels during construction within two years, the government will announce after Keir Starmer rejected Tony Blair’s criticism of net zero policies.

Housebuilders will be legally required to install solar panels on the roofs of new properties by 2027 under the plans.

Hi

Don't know if this is trendsetting or following the existing trend in that the proportion of new builds incorporating solar has been rising pretty quickly recently and currently seems to stand at at least 42% as many customers likely consider this to be a desirable inclusion to their selection criteria ....

What also needs to be considered is that ~40% of new builds are flats etc which undoubtedly limits the available area for solar per occupant resulting in the term 'all new-build' being very questionable ... I do also note the inconsistency between a definite "legally required to install solar panels on the roofs ..."  and the less robust "Almost all new homes ...", so look out for the caveats when the detail finally arrives .....

Anyway take the current 42% away from the whole and we're left with a current 58% of homes being built without solar, of which 40% to some degree will either not be suitable for .. or .. less amenity per occupant for having solar included .... what's left to really address for single occupancy homes (/houses) remains is ~18%, which is already being eaten into as customer decision making demand such things grows ...

To me it simply looks like a politically motivated diversionary ploy on the 'net zero' front ... take something that's already happening, claim ownership and leadership through (likely unecessary) legislation and then claim a 'net zero' political win before the conclusion of this parliament, potentially with little direct government funding, apart from the overinflated new department/quango to administer the oversight (shouldn't that be DESNZ anyway?)  .... 'look everybody, through all our bleeding edge leadership & unique well thought though efforts we finally made this happen for you - aren't we good - vote for us next time!' ... 

Cynicism or realism ?

HTH - Z

QrizB

zeupater said:

... apart from the overinflated new department/quango to administer the oversight (shouldn't that be DESNZ anyway?)

I'd expect this to be done through local councils planing & building control functions, much as the mandates for EV chargers, insulation and heat pumps are being implemented.

Not via central government, and probably without any specific budget.

QrizB

Reading the Guardian article, it linked out to an earlier one (link) reporting on something from the Resolution Foundation.

Per the Grauniad:

According to the research, a family with a 3kW solar panel could save as much as £440 a year.
The report noted that a 3kW solar panel cost about £6,500 ...

The first number sounds about right, possibly a little low. Assuming 3kWp will generate 2500kWh per year, 800kWh replacing consumption at 25p/kWh and 1700kWh exported at 15p/kWh, that's £455 a year.

The second number however sounds bonkers. Who is paying £6500 for 3kWp of solar these days?

The original Resolution Foundation report (link) contains the same £6500 figure, so it's not just dodgy reporting by the Guardian!

Martyn1981

QrizB said:

Reading the Guardian article, it linked out to an earlier one (link) reporting on something from the Resolution Foundation.

Per the Grauniad:

According to the research, a family with a 3kW solar panel could save as much as £440 a year.
The report noted that a 3kW solar panel cost about £6,500 ...

The first number sounds about right, possibly a little low. Assuming 3kWp will generate 2500kWh per year, 800kWh replacing consumption at 25p/kWh and 1700kWh exported at 15p/kWh, that's £455 a year.

The second number however sounds bonkers. Who is paying £6500 for 3kWp of solar these days?

The original Resolution Foundation report (link) contains the same £6500 figure, so it's not just dodgy reporting by the Guardian!

Sadly, I'd say that's about right for what you will see given as average prices. I've no idea why.

I did have an e-mail exchange, and then some friendly phonecalls with the Energy Saving Trust over a decade ago, trying to get them to reduce their figures, as I felt they were misleading. Don't think it helped.

In fact, just checked the EST website and found this:

How much do solar panels cost to install?

Generally, domestic solar panel systems are around 3.5 kWp and cost around £7,000. 

Regarding the "green crap", yes, the new build regs had been gradually upgraded and the final part was to do with carbon impact, which could only be met by PV install, or some sort of off-set, almost certainly an investment in an RE scheme. The industry said they were ready and geared up for it, but it was pulled the year before. The argument was that it would increase the house price, but the energy savings would have led to a net reduction in monthly costs (including mortgage).

Alnat1

The government needs to make similar rules for the huge industrial units that are shooting up all over the landscape. Maybe with added battery storage?

zeupater

QrizB said:

zeupater said:

... apart from the overinflated new department/quango to administer the oversight (shouldn't that be DESNZ anyway?)

I'd expect this to be done through local councils planing & building control functions, much as the mandates for EV chargers, insulation and heat pumps are being implemented.

Not via central government, and probably without any specific budget.

Hi

The question arises as to why the referenced article was published and over that why now, today, and even more, why a policy specific article would be deemed suitable within the pre-election period (Purdah) - it's not as if anyone familiar with the subject would be learning anything new as the whole article seems to be going over old ground ... for example, your reference to local planning & building control was actually covered in the article by quoting a "government spokesperson" as saying "Through the Future Homes Standard we plan to maximise the installation of solar panels on new homes as part of our ambition to ensure all new homes are energy efficient, and will set out final plans in due course.”, unfortunately though, that would simply be endorsing and taking credit for work conducted under the previous government in 2024, whilst, through referencing "All" new homes, seemingly ignoring the caveats regarding this mentioned in the very standard the "spokesperson" references.

However, even the referenced standard needs fleshing out before anything is done as there are some pretty basic issues ... for example, on new homes the inclusion of  "High efficiency solar PV panels covering equivalent of 40% of ground floor area." would result in a development of larger homes needing to cope with ~10kW peak excess generation per home (therefore three phase supplies) and therefore having grid capability to cope with this as a potential excess (ie 1MW per 100 homes!) .... for those not following the issue that the penny's not fully dropped yet ... this effectively means that planning decisions could not be entirely a local authority issue and that such regulatory changes would effectively delay the central government's ambition of building a set number of homes by the end of this parliament .... rather, the DNO will have a significant say in the number and types of homes that THEY will consider to be acceptable to comply with medium term grid capabilities .... and that, of course, is where the "overinflated new department/quango to administer the oversight (shouldn't that be DESNZ anyway?)" becomes necessary as someone, somewhere (likely large & centralised department!) will need to prioritise and sign-off the necessary project & subsidising expenditure to sort out an unnecessary mess created through a mixture of logical short-sightedness and political ambition ...

In terms of conflating both top down & bottom up approaches without careful delineation & robust management seems to look like a recipe for a complete shambles to me ...

HTH - Z

QrizB

zeupater said:

..., on new homes the inclusion of  "High efficiency solar PV panels covering equivalent of 40% of ground floor area." would result in a development of larger homes needing to cope with ~10kW peak excess generation per home (therefore three phase supplies) and therefore having grid capability to cope with this as a potential excess (ie 1MW per 100 homes!)

10kWp of generation doesn't necessarily require three phase any more than a 10kW electric shower does (and, for clarity, a shower doesn't). I can however imagine that large properties might routinely need three phase of they're going to be equipped with heat pumps and EV chargers.

Also, 10kWp of panels can still be limited to less export if the local grid can't handle more.

michaels

zeupater said:

QrizB said:

zeupater said:

... apart from the overinflated new department/quango to administer the oversight (shouldn't that be DESNZ anyway?)

I'd expect this to be done through local councils planing & building control functions, much as the mandates for EV chargers, insulation and heat pumps are being implemented.

Not via central government, and probably without any specific budget.

Hi

The question arises as to why the referenced article was published and over that why now, today, and even more, why a policy specific article would be deemed suitable within the pre-election period (Purdah) - it's not as if anyone familiar with the subject would be learning anything new as the whole article seems to be going over old ground ... for example, your reference to local planning & building control was actually covered in the article by quoting a "government spokesperson" as saying "Through the Future Homes Standard we plan to maximise the installation of solar panels on new homes as part of our ambition to ensure all new homes are energy efficient, and will set out final plans in due course.”, unfortunately though, that would simply be endorsing and taking credit for work conducted under the previous government in 2024, whilst, through referencing "All" new homes, seemingly ignoring the caveats regarding this mentioned in the very standard the "spokesperson" references.

However, even the referenced standard needs fleshing out before anything is done as there are some pretty basic issues ... for example, on new homes the inclusion of  "High efficiency solar PV panels covering equivalent of 40% of ground floor area." would result in a development of larger homes needing to cope with ~10kW peak excess generation per home (therefore three phase supplies) and therefore having grid capability to cope with this as a potential excess (ie 1MW per 100 homes!) .... for those not following the issue that the penny's not fully dropped yet ... this effectively means that planning decisions could not be entirely a local authority issue and that such regulatory changes would effectively delay the central government's ambition of building a set number of homes by the end of this parliament .... rather, the DNO will have a significant say in the number and types of homes that THEY will consider to be acceptable to comply with medium term grid capabilities .... and that, of course, is where the "overinflated new department/quango to administer the oversight (shouldn't that be DESNZ anyway?)" becomes necessary as someone, somewhere (likely large & centralised department!) will need to prioritise and sign-off the necessary project & subsidising expenditure to sort out an unnecessary mess created through a mixture of logical short-sightedness and political ambition ...

In terms of conflating both top down & bottom up approaches without careful delineation & robust management seems to look like a recipe for a complete shambles to me ...

HTH - Z

TBH I don't think the grid as currently configured likes embedded generation to the extent that it needs power to be pushed the 'wrong' way through the local transformer.  I assume that it can be done but would mean that a new estate would need to be connected to such a two-way transformer.