Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

lstar337

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Electric cars emit 50% less greenhouse gas than diesel, study finds

Exclusive: researchers calculated the total lifecycle emissions of an electric car, including its manufacture, battery manufacture, and all of its energy consumption

Electric cars emit significantly less greenhouse gases over their lifetimes than diesel engines even when they are powered by the most carbon intensive energy, a new report has found.

Without looking like a negative nelly, I have to pick on this part in bold as I think it is significant.

Does anybody know how the lifespans of a typical EV and diesel compare? As it seems the statement is meaningless unless you know.

Without bashing EV's, my diesel car is 12 years old (~140000 miles) and is still going strong, would an EV battery still be sensible after that length of time? This is a genuine question as I'm quite interested in EV's, and would get one if I had the money.

Martyn1981

lstar337 wrote: »

Without looking like a negative nelly, I have to pick on this part in bold as I think it is significant.

Does anybody know how the lifespans of a typical EV and diesel compare? As it seems the statement is meaningless unless you know.

Without bashing EV's, my diesel car is 12 years old (~140000 miles) and is still going strong, would an EV battery still be sensible after that length of time? This is a genuine question as I'm quite interested in EV's, and would get one if I had the money.

Good point.

I'm not sure if I should state typical lifetimes, so I'll just say the figures 'I keep reading', are that ICE's are good for about 140,000 miles, whilst EV's should be good for far more, say 250k+. The latest Tesla's are being touted as 500k mile cars.

Regarding batts, regardless of car make, they seem to be lasting far longer than anyone expected. Again referencing Tesla, there are some Finish taxi's that have exceeded 200k miles and the batts still have around 94% of capacity. In fact a study by 'Teslanomics' asking owners to submit their mileage and capacity figures, seems to show a rapid drop off of around 3-4%, then very little after that, with compiled data also suggesting around 94% for 150-200k miles.

Renault and Nissan have both run into trouble with their second life schemes/plans to re-purpose old car batts for stationary storage, as they simply aren't replacing enough yet.

EricMears

lstar337 wrote: »

Does anybody know how the lifespans of a typical EV and diesel compare? As it seems the statement is meaningless unless you know.

Without bashing EV's, my diesel car is 12 years old (~140000 miles) and is still going strong, would an EV battery still be sensible after that length of time? This is a genuine question as I'm quite interested in EV's, and would get one if I had the money.

FWIW, VW have given me an 8 year warranty on my battery (e-Up!) so I guess they're pretty confident of it lasting that long.

I'm not expecting it to be working perfectly just before the 8th anniversary then stop dead the next day. I would expect at least another 8 years life before daily range had (say) halved which would still make it perfectly acceptable for my pattern of use. I could cope with charging it every day rather than every third day or even needing a midday boost.

lstar337

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Good point.

I'm not sure if I should state typical lifetimes, so I'll just say the figures 'I keep reading', are that ICE's are good for about 140,000 miles, whilst EV's should be good for far more, say 250k+. The latest Tesla's are being touted as 500k mile cars.

Well I hope not, otherwise I'm in trouble! :rotfl:

I can see mine lasting a lot longer than 140,000 miles, but maybe mine isn't typical. I have a BMW diesel (I had spare money before I had a family) so maybe they are built a little better than your average. It still drives like new to me, and it was 6 years old when I bought it!

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Regarding batts, regardless of car make, they seem to be lasting far longer than anyone expected. Again referencing Tesla, there are some Finish taxi's that have exceeded 200k miles and the batts still have around 94% of capacity. In fact a study by 'Teslanomics' asking owners to submit their mileage and capacity figures, seems to show a rapid drop off of around 3-4%, then very little after that, with compiled data also suggesting around 94% for 150-200k miles.

Renault and Nissan have both run into trouble with their second life schemes/plans to re-purpose old car batts for stationary storage, as they simply aren't replacing enough yet.

Thanks for the info. I have been looking at used EV's, so if the batteries are doing better than manufacturers expected then it takes a little anxiety out of the equation.

Martyn1981

lstar337 wrote: »

Well I hope not, otherwise I'm in trouble! :rotfl:

I can see mine lasting a lot longer than 140,000 miles, but maybe mine isn't typical. I have a BMW diesel (I had spare money before I had a family) so maybe they are built a little better than your average. It still drives like new to me, and it was 6 years old when I bought it!

Thanks for the info. I have been looking at used EV's, so if the batteries are doing better than manufacturers expected then it takes a little anxiety out of the equation.

And to remove some more anxiety, the cost of the batts keeps falling. here's a post from a short while back. It's about the 24kWh leaf pack, but expect that price to be for the 30kWh pack soon, and then the 40kWh pack in the future, as prices keep falling.

So you could buy a secondhand EV and if it's showing a poor battery capacity, then pay a lower price for it, then get a new battery, and you've just paid up front for 10 years of discounted/cheap fuel (in a way - leccy price v's petrol price / mile).

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Bouncing around articles I fell on this one about replacement battery costs for older Nissan Leafs (24kWh models). The price is $5.5k plus 3 hrs labour.

Nissan Sets Replacement Cost Of 24 kWh LEAF Battery At $5,499

That sounds very reasonable, not sure what the UK price is, but even if it was £5.5k that would equal less than 2yrs consumption of petrol for average driving (7,900miles pa, 22 miles per day).

Add in some finance, leccy bills etc, and perhaps 2 to 3yrs and its completely paid for.

Martyn1981

News and politics, this one. And before we start keep in mind that Trump said he didn't want to stay in the Paris Accord as the US would have to pay $2-$3bn pa.

Subsidy plan for coal and nuclear plants 'will cost US taxpayers $10.6bn a year'

A Trump administration plan to subsidize coal and nuclear energy would cost US taxpayers about $10.6bn a year and prop up some of the oldest and dirtiest power plants in the country, a new analysis has found.

The plan would provide a lifeline to many ageing coal and nuclear plants that would otherwise go out of business, primarily due to the abundance of cheap natural gas and the plummeting cost of renewables.

“The irony of putting costs on consumers for resources that are no longer competitive is really striking,” said Brendan Pierpoint, energy finance consultant at Climate Policy Initiative. “It would serve to keep a lot of uneconomic plants in the market that currently can’t compete with the changing dynamics of cheap gas and the falling cost of renewables.”

michaels

lstar337 wrote: »

Without looking like a negative nelly, I have to pick on this part in bold as I think it is significant.

Does anybody know how the lifespans of a typical EV and diesel compare? As it seems the statement is meaningless unless you know.

Without bashing EV's, my diesel car is 12 years old (~140000 miles) and is still going strong, would an EV battery still be sensible after that length of time? This is a genuine question as I'm quite interested in EV's, and would get one if I had the money.

Try speakev.com which includes threads on leaf battery longevity. Leaf battery replacement is 5k, a few non-nissan experts replace the battery cells which have failed more cheaply. Renault let you replace an original 24kwh battery for a new 42kwh one for 10k.

Leaf in a what car survey is 94% relaible to 3 years old, 3rd in its size. I have had a diesel which had already cost a fortune to keep on the road when I sold it for little money at 7 years old 70k miles, not all are made as equal as your bmw.

Martyn1981

michaels wrote: »

Leaf in a what car survey is 94% relaible to 3 years old, 3rd in its size. I have had a diesel which had already cost a fortune to keep on the road when I sold it for little money at 7 years old 70k miles, not all are made as equal as your bmw.

In the US Consumer Reports have just released their report on cars. A shocker is that the Chevy Bolt got an average score, which is pretty much unheard of for a car in its first year (due to teething problems), but even more incredible is that it's Chevy's highest scoring model.

So their new EV has scored better than all of their existing models.

ed110220

Martyn1981 wrote: »

In the US Consumer Reports have just released their report on cars. A shocker is that the Chevy Bolt got an average score, which is pretty much unheard of for a car in its first year (due to teething problems), but even more incredible is that it's Chevy's highest scoring model.

So their new EV has scored better than all of their existing models.

It's a real pity the Chevy Bolt isn't made in RHD. It's by far America's best selling non-Tesla electric car and would probably sell really well here given that it outsold the Leaf almost 3:1 in September there.

Martyn1981

ed110220 wrote: »

It's a real pity the Chevy Bolt isn't made in RHD. It's by far America's best selling non-Tesla electric car and would probably sell really well here given that it outsold the Leaf almost 3:1 in September there.

I suspect it's a compliance car that got out of hand. In the US there are states where none can be sourced, whilst other states that are discounting them. In Europe some dealerships are being told to stop taking orders (Opel Ampera-E) as there's a long term shortage of supply.

It's almost as if Chevy doesn't want to sell them!

BTW - despite Opel now being owned by PSA (the Peugeot Citreon people) Chevy has to supply Ampera-E's whilst the car (Bolt) is still in production under the buy out contract.