Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

michaels

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

Am I having a senior moment? Aren't GW a measure of power not quantity?

I'm not sure I understand, but will take a guess.

The defining factor here is power, the estimates being that the storage will need to be able to take 15GW in order to avoid curtailment. I'm guessing, but perhaps the estimated shortfall in generation, when storage is needed, will also be about 15GW.

The amount of energy capacity, will depend on the length of time that the excess may exist, or the shortfall need filling. And will also depend on the type of storage, and what it's designed to do, eg, LAES or flow batts may be 10+hrs, or H2 and CAES may be an order of magnitude greater, but I am just throwing out generalisations.

What I've become accustomed to over the last ~10yrs, is that discussions about large scale storage (in the news, or policy announcements), are typically in terms of power. Energy figures are typically also given when discussing a specific project.



As an aside, and I know I harp on about this a lot, but I assume that national storage figures are now, somewhat impacted by the growing number of interconnectors. As countries can then share storage (to a degree), which probably helps to smooth things out a bit. Thus reducing the absolute total power and capacity of storage, that a country would otherwise need to have. But again, I'm guessing, generalising, and speculating.

In which case we seem to be saying that we will need to basically have enough dispatchable power from storage to match our energy demand if we only have RE generation sources.  Is that really 'news' requiring complex modelling?

Surely much more relevant (in terms of total cost of provision) is how much energy we would need to store?

Martyn1981

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

Am I having a senior moment? Aren't GW a measure of power not quantity?

I'm not sure I understand, but will take a guess.

The defining factor here is power, the estimates being that the storage will need to be able to take 15GW in order to avoid curtailment. I'm guessing, but perhaps the estimated shortfall in generation, when storage is needed, will also be about 15GW.

The amount of energy capacity, will depend on the length of time that the excess may exist, or the shortfall need filling. And will also depend on the type of storage, and what it's designed to do, eg, LAES or flow batts may be 10+hrs, or H2 and CAES may be an order of magnitude greater, but I am just throwing out generalisations.

What I've become accustomed to over the last ~10yrs, is that discussions about large scale storage (in the news, or policy announcements), are typically in terms of power. Energy figures are typically also given when discussing a specific project.



As an aside, and I know I harp on about this a lot, but I assume that national storage figures are now, somewhat impacted by the growing number of interconnectors. As countries can then share storage (to a degree), which probably helps to smooth things out a bit. Thus reducing the absolute total power and capacity of storage, that a country would otherwise need to have. But again, I'm guessing, generalising, and speculating.

In which case we seem to be saying that we will need to basically have enough dispatchable power from storage to match our energy demand if we only have RE generation sources.  Is that really 'news' requiring complex modelling?

Surely much more relevant (in terms of total cost of provision) is how much energy we would need to store?

Not sure I understand your conclusions, but energy numbers (as well as power) were given in the article I posted before your first response.

silverwhistle

Remember storage comes in different forms. I've just mentioned on another thread charging my car last night at a time of low carbon for the grid. That should do me ~ two weeks average mileage, although I might during that time get 20-30 miles more in through solar if we have some cloudless spells, or do a top up during another windy spell. 

Not particularly relevant but amusingly I tested my car's V2L this morning and made a pot of tea on the drive. It reduced mileage by 1 but didn't change the battery percentage! :-)

ed110220

thevilla said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

May be, just may be, we will finally see government under enough pressure to start moving in the right direction on RE including freeing up planning to allow onshore windfarms in England (which would make Ripple very happy I'm sure).

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/16/top-uk-energy-firms-to-warn-rishi-sunak-dont-back-off-green-agenda

With an election imminent? I doubt it very much sadly.

I wouldn't be so sure. The climate denial/anti-renewable demographic was never especially large and is steadily shrinking. The Conservatives here should look at what happened to their Liberal-National Party equivalent in Australia and how it was booted out when its denialism became untenable. Tilting at windmills turns off a lot more voters than it attracts. Younger, more educated and urban voters abandoned the LNP COALition, as it is often known, in droves. 

The only danger I see is that the Conservatives have already resigned themselves to defeat and have calculated that if they're going to lose, they might as well throw some red meat to members and core voters to try to keep up morale. 

Martyn1981

I wonder if this will get built, and if so, how big, but for now we have UK planning permission granted for an 'up to' 1GW/2GWh battery ...... that's BIG!

Carlton Power secures planning consent for 2,080MWh BESS in UK

UK energy infrastructure development company Carlton Power has secured planning consent for a 2,080MWh battery energy storage scheme (BESS).

The BESS project, which Carlton Power touts will have a capacity of up to 1GW (1040MW/2080MWh), will be located at the ‘Trafford Low Carbon Energy Park’ in Greater Manchester, UK and require £750 million in capital to create.

The project is subject to a final investment decision with Carlton currently in advanced talks with companies to finance, build and operate the BESS.

Should this go ahead as planned, Carlton anticipates construction to begin in early 2024 with commercial operations to start in the final quarter of 2025.

michaels

So 1gw of the 15gw we need by 2030?

ed110220

I always thought it was strange that heat pumps, that most of the public probably know little to nothing about, had suddenly become hate symbols for a section of the media. They seemed an unlikely target for such strong feelings, unlike, say, wind turbines that are very visible.

Now we know why. The gas industry paid a PR firm to in its words "spark outrage" at heat pumps. (Desmog.com)

Exiled_Tyke

ed110220 said:

I always thought it was strange that heat pumps, that most of the public probably know little to nothing about, had suddenly become hate symbols for a section of the media. They seemed an unlikely target for such strong feelings, unlike, say, wind turbines that are very visible.

Now we know why. The gas industry paid a PR firm to in its words "spark outrage" at heat pumps. (Desmog.com)

Why am I not surprised? (But still very disappointed) 

Martyn1981

ed110220 said:

I always thought it was strange that heat pumps, that most of the public probably know little to nothing about, had suddenly become hate symbols for a section of the media. They seemed an unlikely target for such strong feelings, unlike, say, wind turbines that are very visible.

Now we know why. The gas industry paid a PR firm to in its words "spark outrage" at heat pumps. (Desmog.com)

And sadly, its working.

UK installations of heat pumps 10 times lower than in France, report finds

The UK is lagging far behind France and other EU countries in installing heat pumps, research has shown, with less than a tenth of the number of installations despite having similar markets.

Only 55,000 heat pumps were sold in the UK last year, compared with more than 620,000 in France. Twenty other European countries also had higher installation rates than the UK.

Plan to replace gas boilers with heat pumps should be reviewed, says Gove

Britain’s plans to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030 are “immovable” but it is time to review proposals for homeowners to replace gas boilers with heat pumps, Michael Gove has said.

Asked on Times Radio if the petrol and diesel ban was an immovable target, the levelling up secretary said: “Yes.” But, on the question of targets to install heat pumps in new homes, he said: “That is one area that I do think that we need to review … it’s important that new homes meet net zero standards but one of the challenges that we have is with our existing housing stock.”

Gove was speaking after Rishi Sunak signalled on Monday that the government could delay or even abandon green policies that imposed a direct cost on consumers, as he came under pressure from the Conservative right to create a dividing line with Labour at the next election.

Martyn1981

I often mention interconnectors between the UK and mainland Europe, and these have grown very large, very fast. And then we have the growth across Europe which could be viewed as a growing 'super-grid'.

So here's an article looking at a study suggesting an African super grid, linking 12 countries.

I'll also add a link to the study, as I found the graphic useful to get a better idea of what is suggested. This is just a study, but the article breaks down the main issues, benefits, costs and concerns, so may be of interest.

Sub-Saharan 12-Country Supergrid Proposed By Researchers

The paper is Juxtaposing Sub-Sahara Africa’s energy poverty and renewable energy potential. What is the provenance of the proposal? It’s from a multinational research team from Guangdong University of Petrochemical Technology, the University of Electronic Science and Technology of China, the Cyprus International University, the Chrisland University in Nigeria, and the University of Sharjah in the UAE. That represents both foreign and African researchers. It’s in the journal Scientific Reports, a natural sciences research sub-publication of Nature with a good impact factor of 5.516 over five years. This isn’t a whimsy, but a solid research effort that’s been peer-reviewed.

The proposed transmission grid stretches from Mali and Nigeria in western Africa, through Niger, Chad, and Sudan to Ethiopia in eastern Africa, then south through Kenya, Uganda, Burundi, Tanzania, and Mozambique before terminating in South Africa at the southern tip of the continent. That’s over 10,000 kilometers of transmission lines covering some epic terrain, including a lot of desert and crossing the Great Rift Valley at least once. That’s 40% of the distance around the equator. This is not a trivial proposal.

Juxtaposing Sub-Sahara Africa’s energy poverty and renewable energy potential