Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

silverwhistle

EricMears said:

Martyn1981 said:

I think this sounds promising, 'real' progress on nuclear fusion. Obviously there's the long standing joke that fusion is just two decades away, but now it seems that it might actually be true (might), but will it be cost competitive in two decades, I've no idea.

Breakthrough in nuclear fusion could mean ‘near-limitless energy’

Those of us who remember the same headline from the 1950s are managing to contain our excitement 

You're obviously older than me.. :-)  Make it the 1960's and you're on!

1961Nick

EricMears said:

Martyn1981 said:

I think this sounds promising, 'real' progress on nuclear fusion. Obviously there's the long standing joke that fusion is just two decades away, but now it seems that it might actually be true (might), but will it be cost competitive in two decades, I've no idea.

Breakthrough in nuclear fusion could mean ‘near-limitless energy’

Those of us who remember the same headline from the 1950s are managing to contain our excitement 

So sceptical ... apart from the 5MWh needed to run the lasers it's as good as there!

ABrass

1961Nick said:

EricMears said:

Martyn1981 said:

I think this sounds promising, 'real' progress on nuclear fusion. Obviously there's the long standing joke that fusion is just two decades away, but now it seems that it might actually be true (might), but will it be cost competitive in two decades, I've no idea.

Breakthrough in nuclear fusion could mean ‘near-limitless energy’

Those of us who remember the same headline from the 1950s are managing to contain our excitement 

So sceptical ... apart from the 5MWh needed to run the lasers it's as good as there!

....And using the heat generated to generate electricity...

Martyn1981

Yesterday I watched the latest episode of 'Undecided - With Matt Ferrell'.

It talked about yet another battery hopeful, but this one seems to be progressing well. It's a type of flow batt, but instead of the usual vanadium redox flow batts, with expensive materials, it uses cheaper zinc and bromine. It's also a gel formulation, so doesn't flow in the same way, and doesn't need pumps, backups etc.

Also, it uses most of the same production processes as lead acid batts, even the same type of cases, so a lead acid battery factory can be easily converted.

I appreciate that there are many, many, breakthrough batts, seemingly every other day, but this one may be worth a watch/read. If nothing else, as I've said before about other batt technologies, then spreading the demand across more materials will help each technology (and us) financially.

This batt is a lower energy density type, aimed at stationary uses, and perhaps the 6-12hr storage period.

137 Year Old Battery Tech May Be The Future of Energy Storage

137 Year Old Battery Tech May Be The Future of Energy Storage. As good as lithium ion batteries are, they have their limitations and challenges, but there’s also plenty of battery alternatives. Flow batteries alone have enough variations in chemistry to make your head spin. Zinc bromine batteries are one up-and-coming contender … and calling them up and coming sounds funny when you consider that they’ve existed for 137 years … but they might hold the future for energy storage. And for such an old idea, why now?

Here's a link to their site




And here's an October article from Energy Storage News:

Zinc bromide battery production begins in Australia using legacy lead-acid production know-how

The company’s initial batch of batteries made at the pre-commercial demonstration stage have performed well in customers tests, Gelion said.

In February, Energy-Storage.news reported that Gelion’s battery tech is among energy storage technologies being tried out by Spanish multinational infrastructure and renewable energy conglomerate at a solar PV plant site in Northern Spain.

Installation of the 25kW/100kWh system is set to begin in Q3 this year at Acciona’s Montes del Cierzo 1.2MW solar farm and Gelion’s battery, called Endure, could be added to Acciona’s supplier portfolio if the 6 – 12 month-long project proves successful.    

zeupater

1961Nick said:

EricMears said:

Martyn1981 said:

I think this sounds promising, 'real' progress on nuclear fusion. Obviously there's the long standing joke that fusion is just two decades away, but now it seems that it might actually be true (might), but will it be cost competitive in two decades, I've no idea.

Breakthrough in nuclear fusion could mean ‘near-limitless energy’

Those of us who remember the same headline from the 1950s are managing to contain our excitement 

So sceptical ... apart from the 5MWh needed to run the lasers it's as good as there!

Hi

If it was totally solved under lab conditions right now and significantly more energy was generated than seeded, the real work involved in scaleability then begins .... have a look into the current availability & cost of a major component in the experiment - Tritium.

It's estimated that there's currently ~20kg of Tritium currently on Earth, and it's rarity values it at ~600x that of gold .... if you think that there's currently issues with energy supply chains causing shortages, just wait until Tritium becomes the bottleneck .... to place into context, the current fusion experiments are said to plan to use >25% of the total available! ....

Nice one nuclear eggheads, now try to invent a process that can manufacture Tritium at both a scale & cost that makes fusion possible & affordable ..... whilst you're at it, why don't you have a go at doing the same for gold as many probably as bright or brighter than the current generation have tried for aeons ...

Looks like everyone's too busy concentrating on getting their name onto prizes & into history rather than solving the problem that's hiding in plain sight ...

HTH - Z  

  

ABrass

ITER will be producing Tritium once it starts operating thanks to Neutrinos and Lithium blankets.

Edit, nope, just doing some pre demo work. But it's the future, just 30 years away 

zeupater

ABrass said:

ITER will be producing Tritium once it starts operating thanks to Neutrinos and Lithium blankets.

Edit, nope, just doing some pre demo work. But it's the future, just 30 years away 

Hi

I'm pretty much aware of that, however, how much have they produced, can they scale to meet potential demand, when will they start, what's the lead time, how much will it cost, who will pay for it ... and ... will anyone guarantee that what they predict will happen will actually happen?  .... if the potential for returns is huge there'll be absolutely no problem attracting immediate private sector funding (current energy sector is ideal partner as this would kill their current business models!). The fact that the funding isn't being shouted about tends to convey that what has been 30years for around double that timescale and we've now got so much attention being given to such a marginal process net gain, it looks like the project timescale is likely to remain at 30years for some time yet ...     

ITER don't particularly ooze scaleability & timescale confidence themselves in their Tritium Breeding brief, only mentioning that they expect to need 300g/800MW.day to fuel the process ... that's quite a lot compared to existing stocks, which effectively means that for a single pretty small scale fusion reactor the world's total stock is around 8 weeks, so, if they're really confident that their science can work on a commercial basis, they better solve the real problem (scalability) and get the required finances in place before they even consider attempting anything else .... if it's not commercially viable or sustainable, then what's the point other than stoking some pretty fragile egos.   

When the scientists have finished their academic bit and the engineers start getting excited about scaling experiments into production ... and ... all of the finances are in place, then we can start to become optimistic, until then it's little more than theoretical research to keep a bunch of academics in a well paid job ...

HTH - Z

thevilla

zeupater said:

ABrass said:

ITER will be producing Tritium once it starts operating thanks to Neutrinos and Lithium blankets.

Edit, nope, just doing some pre demo work. But it's the future, just 30 years away 

Hi

I'm pretty much aware of that, however, how much have they produced, can they scale to meet potential demand, when will they start, what's the lead time, how much will it cost, who will pay for it ... and ... will anyone guarantee that what they predict will happen will actually happen?  .... if the potential for returns is huge there'll be absolutely no problem attracting immediate private sector funding (current energy sector is ideal partner as this would kill their current business models!). The fact that the funding isn't being shouted about tends to convey that what has been 30years for around double that timescale and we've now got so much attention being given to such a marginal process net gain, it looks like the project timescale is likely to remain at 30years for some time yet ...     

ITER don't particularly ooze scaleability & timescale confidence themselves in their Tritium Breeding brief, only mentioning that they expect to need 300g/800MW.day to fuel the process ... that's quite a lot compared to existing stocks, which effectively means that for a single pretty small scale fusion reactor the world's total stock is around 8 weeks, so, if they're really confident that their science can work on a commercial basis, they better solve the real problem (scalability) and get the required finances in place before they even consider attempting anything else .... if it's not commercially viable or sustainable, then what's the point other than stoking some pretty fragile egos.   

When the scientists have finished their academic bit and the engineers start getting excited about scaling experiments into production ... and ... all of the finances are in place, then we can start to become optimistic, until then it's little more than theoretical research to keep a bunch of academics in a well paid job ...

HTH - Z

Not very often you see academics and well paid In the same sentence.

Was it Michael Gove who said a couple of years ago we should only back scientific winners?  Obviously baring fruit looking at the economy today

zeupater

thevilla said:

zeupater said:

ABrass said:

ITER will be producing Tritium once it starts operating thanks to Neutrinos and Lithium blankets.

Edit, nope, just doing some pre demo work. But it's the future, just 30 years away 

Hi

I'm pretty much aware of that, however, how much have they produced, can they scale to meet potential demand, when will they start, what's the lead time, how much will it cost, who will pay for it ... and ... will anyone guarantee that what they predict will happen will actually happen?  .... if the potential for returns is huge there'll be absolutely no problem attracting immediate private sector funding (current energy sector is ideal partner as this would kill their current business models!). The fact that the funding isn't being shouted about tends to convey that what has been 30years for around double that timescale and we've now got so much attention being given to such a marginal process net gain, it looks like the project timescale is likely to remain at 30years for some time yet ...     

ITER don't particularly ooze scaleability & timescale confidence themselves in their Tritium Breeding brief, only mentioning that they expect to need 300g/800MW.day to fuel the process ... that's quite a lot compared to existing stocks, which effectively means that for a single pretty small scale fusion reactor the world's total stock is around 8 weeks, so, if they're really confident that their science can work on a commercial basis, they better solve the real problem (scalability) and get the required finances in place before they even consider attempting anything else .... if it's not commercially viable or sustainable, then what's the point other than stoking some pretty fragile egos.   

When the scientists have finished their academic bit and the engineers start getting excited about scaling experiments into production ... and ... all of the finances are in place, then we can start to become optimistic, until then it's little more than theoretical research to keep a bunch of academics in a well paid job ...

HTH - Z

Not very often you see academics and well paid In the same sentence.

Was it Michael Gove who said a couple of years ago we should only back scientific winners?  Obviously baring fruit looking at the economy today

Hi

At least there's one thing that they seem to be decent at ... publishing their pay scales ...

Have a look, it may be eye watering for anyone near/below, average pay, even compared to someone like say an MP or even the Prime Minister in some cases!  .... oh, and don't overlook the obvious understatement slight of hand measure which only becomes apparent with reference to a note ... "The figures above represent the Net ''Take home Salary'', after application of compulsory deductions (Internal Tax and contributions to Pension Fund, Medical and Death & Disability Insurances)." , then there's there's the pretty valuable & extensive package of additional benefits .... all worth looking at. 

I also part chuckled & part choked at what is probably the best benefit of all ... if all goes wrong and you're responsible for vaporising a good deal of landmass & the consequential demise of potentially millions of people, it'll be alright because there's ... "Immunity from jurisdiction in the exercise of an ITER employee's functions" ... yes you read that right, someone in a position of power is that confident in what they're doing they actually have drafted an indemnity clause to prevent any form of legal action being taken by any particular body, agency or country, for any reason, as long as what was done was related to ITER's goals .... looks like a perfect modern day example of "for the greater good" with all of it's historical connotations to me! ... maybe I'd be a little less apprehensive if that clause was sun-setted as the thought of a hanging sword of Damocles may act as an important additional brake on risk tolerance for decision takers ...   

HTH - Z

michaels

I can see why in the circumstances there would be no rush (by the researchers) for the research to reach a point where it might get taken forward on a commercial basis....

It seems much more likely that commercial fusion will be achieved by a private sector player - remember the human genome sequencing project?.