Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

EricMears

michaels said:

So looking at the history graphs I can't see gas ever having gone below 3gw even when they have been paying a fortune to have power taken off their hands so there would seem to be some requirement for at least some FF to be kept in operation at all times.  Does anyone know why?

Probably so that the power station(s) keep operating at lowest possible output to provide a 'spinning reserve' to cover any sudden increases in demand

Martyn1981

EricMears said:

michaels said:

So looking at the history graphs I can't see gas ever having gone below 3gw even when they have been paying a fortune to have power taken off their hands so there would seem to be some requirement for at least some FF to be kept in operation at all times.  Does anyone know why?

Probably so that the power station(s) keep operating at lowest possible output to provide a 'spinning reserve' to cover any sudden increases in demand

Sounds reasonable, and could also be to help with frequency regulation - I don't know if that is covered by nuclear turbines (rotational mass).

ESO plan to make the grid capable of operating 100% carbon free by 2025. 

Zero carbon operation of Great Britain’s electricity system by 2025

michaels

Martyn1981 said:

EricMears said:

michaels said:

So looking at the history graphs I can't see gas ever having gone below 3gw even when they have been paying a fortune to have power taken off their hands so there would seem to be some requirement for at least some FF to be kept in operation at all times.  Does anyone know why?

Probably so that the power station(s) keep operating at lowest possible output to provide a 'spinning reserve' to cover any sudden increases in demand

Sounds reasonable, and could also be to help with frequency regulation - I don't know if that is covered by nuclear turbines (rotational mass).

ESO plan to make the grid capable of operating 100% carbon free by 2025. 

Zero carbon operation of Great Britain’s electricity system by 2025

Thanks Martyn, I had found reference to this via newspaper write ups of the press release but I will now read the report.  Shame that what is holding us back from carbon free periods now is not a lack of non-FF capacity but network considerations.

It would make amazing headlines if we had a 'carbon free' day!

Martyn1981

Not this again! Yeah, but this time from the "Climate Assembly UK, a group of 108 members of the public chosen to be representative of the UK population "

UK public 'supports green recovery from coronavirus crisis'

People would be prepared to continue many of the lifestyle changes enforced by the coronavirus lockdown to help tackle the climate emergency, and the government would have broad support for a green economic recovery from the crisis, according to a report.

Jim Watson, a professor of energy policy at University College London, who spoke to the assembly as an expert, said he was struck by what a “very very strong result” the questions produced. “People are prepared to change,” he said. “[But] they don’t see lifestyle changes in isolation from policy change and what businesses are doing. There is very strong support for the government shaping and directing the economy [towards net zero emissions].”

Their opinions carry no legal weight or official recognition, but the organisers said the assembly members’ views were significant because “there is no other group that is at once a representative sample of the UK population, and well-acquainted with the sorts of measures required to reach net zero”. The assembly met for three weekends in Birmingham early this year, before lockdown, and since then attended three online meetings in April and May.

Martyn1981

Doesn't seem very long ago that we were talking about the possibility of double digit MW wind turbines, and now they are already being negotiated for deployment:

Siemens Gamesa bags contract to supply giant turbines to UK wind farm

Developer Innogy confirmed yesterday that it had signed a preferred supplier agreement with the turbine maker for 100 of its new 14MW offshore turbines, which are 262 metres tall, or just 47 metres shorter than The Shard.

And talking digits, we also see the opposite effect, with a 1.4GW wind farm, only just sneaking into triple digits for the WT's.

markin

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

EricMears said:

michaels said:

So looking at the history graphs I can't see gas ever having gone below 3gw even when they have been paying a fortune to have power taken off their hands so there would seem to be some requirement for at least some FF to be kept in operation at all times.  Does anyone know why?

Probably so that the power station(s) keep operating at lowest possible output to provide a 'spinning reserve' to cover any sudden increases in demand

Sounds reasonable, and could also be to help with frequency regulation - I don't know if that is covered by nuclear turbines (rotational mass).

ESO plan to make the grid capable of operating 100% carbon free by 2025. 

Zero carbon operation of Great Britain’s electricity system by 2025

Thanks Martyn, I had found reference to this via newspaper write ups of the press release but I will now read the report.  Shame that what is holding us back from carbon free periods now is not a lack of non-FF capacity but network considerations.

It would make amazing headlines if we had a 'carbon free' day!

So just need to build 3-6GW storage per Hr to replace the Gas to get that first 'carbon free' day, And the ESO think they can do it in 5 years?

Martyn1981

markin said:

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

EricMears said:

michaels said:

So looking at the history graphs I can't see gas ever having gone below 3gw even when they have been paying a fortune to have power taken off their hands so there would seem to be some requirement for at least some FF to be kept in operation at all times.  Does anyone know why?

Probably so that the power station(s) keep operating at lowest possible output to provide a 'spinning reserve' to cover any sudden increases in demand

Sounds reasonable, and could also be to help with frequency regulation - I don't know if that is covered by nuclear turbines (rotational mass).

ESO plan to make the grid capable of operating 100% carbon free by 2025. 

Zero carbon operation of Great Britain’s electricity system by 2025

Thanks Martyn, I had found reference to this via newspaper write ups of the press release but I will now read the report.  Shame that what is holding us back from carbon free periods now is not a lack of non-FF capacity but network considerations.

It would make amazing headlines if we had a 'carbon free' day!

So just need to build 3-6GW storage per Hr to replace the Gas to get that first 'carbon free' day, And the ESO think they can do it in 5 years?

So, following your logic, ESO (for some unknown reason) got into the electricity generation/storage business themselves, and in the last 10yrs, to allow RE to displace ~35% of the leccy supply, rolled out approx 122,500GWh of storage. Is that correct?

Or, and I'm just throwing this out there, ESO expect RE generation to continue to grow, and could, even if only for a brief time period, generate enough in 2025+ to displace all FF generation, perhaps a low demand 30 min period one early morning?

joefizz

Martyn1981 said:

I simply assumed that you (like all the rest of us) knew that there were many, many different forms of storage that we could mix and match. On here we've been discussing them for getting on 10yrs.
But good on you for finally catching up. 

I am going to be cruel and say, yes you may have been discussing them but some of us have been working on them for longer.
As for catching up, Im afraid Martyn, again Im going to be cruel and say that instead of making a cheap and ineffective point you could have just asked what I actually knew about it and I would have been glad to give some information.
No doubt someone will make a youtube video about it in a couple of years and you can repost it on here.

Martyn1981

joefizz said:

Martyn1981 said:

I simply assumed that you (like all the rest of us) knew that there were many, many different forms of storage that we could mix and match. On here we've been discussing them for getting on 10yrs.
But good on you for finally catching up. 

I am going to be cruel and say, yes you may have been discussing them but some of us have been working on them for longer.
As for catching up, Im afraid Martyn, again Im going to be cruel and say that instead of making a cheap and ineffective point you could have just asked what I actually knew about it and I would have been glad to give some information.
No doubt someone will make a youtube video about it in a couple of years and you can repost it on here.

Loads of vids about Highview, I've been watching them with great interest for many years, and of course the informative vids they themselves have produced and run on their site to give simple explanations of the idea and their expansion plans, which seem to be going great both here and in the US.

Hopefully this form of storage, like so, so many others that we've been chatting about for so, so many years, will be successful.

Martyn1981

Whilst I have a passion for LAES, hydrogen is probably going to be our largest form of mid/long term storage, so good to know that it has enormous potential. Note, this article includes H2 from FF gas.

'Hydrogen can meet 50% of UK energy demand by 2050'

Hydrogen can meet up to half of the UK's final energy demand by 2050 and play a significant role in meeting the country's net-zero emissions targets, according to research by Aurora Energy Research.

The report concluded that both blue hydrogen – produced from natural gas after reforming to remove carbon content – and green hydrogen made by renewable energy could supply 480 terrawatt-hours of hydrogen by 2050.

Large-scale hydrogen adoption could also help to integrate renewables into the power system by reducing the requirement for flexibility during peak winter months, and boosting revenues for renewables generators by about £3bn a year by mid-century.