Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

zeupater

markin wrote: »

I wish they would simply say how much power it makes.

"Viessmann will launch its new Vitovalor PT2 fuel cell micro combined heat and power (mCHP) boiler at this year's Installer2019, May 7-9 "


"Under the new, stricter EU energy labelling scale, which comes into force in October 2019, Vitovalor PT2 will have the highest possible Energy-related Product (ErP) rating of A+++. This corresponds to an annual seasonal efficiency of up to 192%, making it a serious alternative to heat pump systems. Not only is the Vitovalor easier than a heat pump to add to an existing heating system, it has a 40,000 kWh heat load demand, double that of an air source heat pump, and generates electricity as well as heat. It can generate enough electricity to cover the basic demands of an average household, save up to 40% of household energy consumption and reduce CO2 emissions by up to 30% compared to separate heat and power generation.
Darren McMahon, Viessmann Marketing Director, commented, “This is Viessmann’s third fuel cell product in less than five years, reflecting the investment by Viessmann in this technology. Over 2,000 units were installed in Europe last year. Vitovalor PT2 has even higher levels of efficiency and is super-easy to install and operate, making it more attractive to a growing installer base and to customers. We're anticipating a great deal of interest in this new product.”


Now with fully-integrated hydraulics and a footprint of just 0.72m2, the new Vitovalor comes in pre-assembled modules that are exceptionally easy to install. The unit includes a 220-litre integrated stainless steel hot water cylinder that replaces its predecessor’s 45-litre cylinder. This makes it more suitable for larger properties. The new Vitovalor is now available in four heating outputs – 11, 19, 25 and 30 kW.
The Vitovalor PT2 is equipped with Viessmann’s brand new E3 control platform, which provides faster and more reliable communications between the end-user, installer and Viessmann. The system is quicker to assemble thanks to fewer flue and pipe connections."


https://www.viessmann.co.uk/press/current-topics/pt2

Hi

Haven't spent much time looking, but it looks like it's a small fuel cell integrated with a standard gas boiler (various capacities available) ...

Specs seem to suggest the fuel cell is capable of 18kWh/day(max), so 750W, with standard operation capacity being described as ..

... With optimal integration, a fuel cell can generate 16.5 kWh of electricity per day ( 6,000 kWh / year ). In a “normal“ application in a single-family home, electricity production is assumed to be between 4,000 and 4,500 kWh ...

so <700W looks to be typical ... however, generation doesn't seem to be demand following so based on 14p/kWh the brochure suggests ...

.. With “normal“ usage in a single-family home, approx. 60 % of the self-generated electricity can now also be used.These are then: 2.700 kWh / a x 0.14p / kWh = 378 - £/a ..

(Brochure)

... leaving questions revolving around what happens to the remaining electricity (40% - assumed exported?) and where it's included in the above calculation .... :doh:... don't you just love marketing departments ... :whistle:

At some time or other companies such as Viessmann will realise that combining the fuel cell with a heat-pump as an integrated offering provides a far more efficient heating solution (possibly 400-500%) where the generation co-product (heat) would be used to boost DHW or space heating circuit temperatures, but as it is as a solution compared to standard GCH, it's a reasonable start ...

HTH
Z

silverwhistle

JKenH wrote: »

True. Most of GA’s posts have a technical element to them and usually lots of figures and I have no technical knowledge that would enable me to challenge or confirm them.

Hmm, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt 'cos I'm nice. But if you want to look at posts with some background of technical element, but backed with common sense can I suggest Zeupater's posts?

The posts from Mart that I tend to challenge usually originate from non technical articles in the media. Inevitably as Mart favours left of centre sources and my politics are right of centre there will be times when we will see things differently.

I've never been sure why right of centre means against R.E. You mean because people on the right tend to be reactionary? So are people on the far left!

JKenH

silverwhistle wrote: »

Hmm, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt 'cos I'm nice. But if you want to look at posts with some background of technical element, but backed with common sense can I suggest Zeupater's posts?




I've never been sure why right of centre means against R.E. You mean because people on the right tend to be reactionary? So are people on the far left!

Thank you, so am I really. (Nice that is). I do read Z’s posts but after about 3 lines he’s lost me with the numbers, much like GA does.

I’m on the right (or should that be in the right:)) but am mainly pro RE. As I am sure you would agree, people don’t always fit perfectly in the limited number of boxes available to describe them. The differences Mart and I have had recently have been about Big Oil rather than RE except when I told him he is not green enough.

silverwhistle

JKenH wrote: »

Leaving aside the reasons for the failure this should push the development of domestic battery technology to provide back up power - at least enough to power my router.

Actually, I'm not too bothered about the mild inconvenience of a short domestic power cut - had one locally only recently for quite a period, but there's now a new local substation as a result! I've got portable LED lights to read by and a camping stove for me cuppa and that will do me (and a wood burner for the winter).

But I do think in the circumstances transport should have priority.

The use of storage and in particular batteries and possibly pumped storage might have avoided the recent outage by dealing with the initial drop in frequency and preventing further tripping, but as Z points out (I think!) the capital cost of storage, however low, has to have a mechanism whereby it is paid for. That is what I believe is currently stalling SSE's proposed pump storage scheme at Coire Glas.

Apparently there have been dangerous drops in frequency over the past few years, so perhaps the latest event will concentrate a few minds. As a technical problem we know it is easy enough to overcome with a bit of will and desire, even if someone writes misleading thread titles on the back of it..

GreatApe

silverwhistle wrote: »

Hmm, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt 'cos I'm nice. But if you want to look at posts with some background of technical element, but backed with common sense can I suggest Zeupater's posts?

Why?
Who died and made him king of engineering and science?
He won't even confirm if he has ant qualifications or a technical degree and where and when he obtained them

Your recommendation is based on nothing more than confirmation bias

I've never been sure why right of centre means against R.E. You mean because people on the right tend to be reactionary? So are people on the far left!

Those on the right are not against technology or business

They are against blighting the countryside with mass wind farms and solar panels (hence why the Tories put the wind farms out at sea and that's worked out for the best)

Also the right tend to be more money prudent so they are against paying more for the same electrons (both for themselves and for the half of the country that can't afford higher prices so they will have to pay indirectly) and despite propaganda pieces that say otherwise everyone knows just keeping the existing infrastructure is the cheapest option

Of course plenty on the right are against wind power and solar panels simply because hippies like them and they don't like hippies so by association.....

michaels

GreatApe wrote: »

These may have made sense when the grid was dirty but soon the grid will be very clean so any electricity generated by these will in comparison be dirty

Some of these distributed small scale energy propaganda remind me of Mao Zedong backyard furnaces

Depends, if the natural gas is being burned for heat anyway then the electricity might be effectively a free by product. Are there still grants available for cup microgeneration?

GreatApe

michaels wrote: »

Depends, if the natural gas is being burned for heat anyway then the electricity might be effectively a free by product. Are there still grants available for cup microgeneration?

No that's not quite right you have that completely wrong
The electricity isn't free
If you have 100 units of heat and you can have either
100 units of heat or
70 units of heat and 30 units of electricity

To make the electricity you lose the heat

This is okay-ish if the grid is natural gas fired because you are effectively generating electricity at 100% efficiency rather than 60% in a CCGT. However if marginal production is domestic or foreign non fossil fuels then it makes no sense. You are indeed producing 100% efficient electricity but that 100% efficient gas electricity is still some 200 grams CO2 Vs closer to 0 grams marginal domestic or foreign non fossil fuels

So it's a bad idea as soon as the grid is at marginal non fossil fuels and that is already here during some periods of some days. And soon many periods of many days

the tech is too late it's pointless now (or rather on the near future say 2023 onwards)


And this doesn't even take into account the money or emissions cost on producing installing maintenance and decommissioning of what is a more complex system)

GreatApe

GreatApe wrote: »

Of course plenty on the right are against wind power and solar panels simply because hippies like them and they don't like hippies so by association.....

Not forgetting to mention there is a very strong undercurrent of socialist Communist retoric by the green party/lobby and many of its supporters

Conservatives naturally want to conserve things so if you want their support pull on their values

Talk about less foreign dependence
Talk about securing the future for their kids
Talk about business and invention being able to solve anything and everything including this
Talk about security of supply

Don't talk about the current economic system being unjust and burning mother earth and we must change the economic system to something more equitable and !!!! must be nationalised in the name of Gia.... because when they hear that they will roll their eyes and think 'not these fools again I thought we got rid of them in the 80s' and will oppose you and your ideology even if there are mild benefits in slowly transitioning away from !!!!!! they won't want to do so when you package it along with all your other pet projects and values

GreatApe

Take that little Greta (btw what's up with a nearly 17 year old looking like she is 10, vegan diet suppressed growth?)

The moment she starts turning it into a communist party march she losses at least 50% of her audience and worse than that she turns 50% against her cause.

Keep it neural

Don't package more wind power now! with a tone and retoric of hate for business and free market capitalism

Hexane

GreatApe wrote: »

Conservatives naturally want to conserve things so if you want their support pull on their values

Talk about less foreign dependence
Talk about securing the future for their kids
Talk about business and invention being able to solve anything and everything including this
Talk about security of supply

Hey buddy, no need to pin your heart on your sleeve and then wave your arm about... we already knew these are your priorities

GreatApe wrote: »

Take that little Greta (btw what's up with a nearly 17 year old looking like she is 10, vegan diet suppressed growth?)

Now now young man, what have I told you about being polite to the other children?

GreatApe wrote: »

Keep it neural
Don't package more wind power now!

That's right! Keep it neural! The bear AI will solve everything, very soon!